RAUK - Archived Forum - Posts by ssthisto:

Does anyone watch Austin Stephens: Most Dangerous?

I think it's excellent.

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I do. I'm waiting for dear Austin to get seriously envenomated by one of the 'wild' snakes he's working with... two bites on one show, and apparently the cobra was a captive specimen that'd been carted out to the back of beyond and just happened to get the drop on him.

I vastly prefer Steve Irwin - he doesn't do things to deliberately rile up wild reptiles, and he handles them with respect and care.

This summer I became the happy owner of a group of imported (apparently Italian) Anguis fragilis, at least one of whom is female. I do hope that one of them is male and that I can attempt breeding these animals in captivity.

Are there any other folk out there who are breeding slow worms, whether of British origin or otherwise, who could offer any tips?

And equally importantly, though I know I don't require a license to own my animals (or native British ones, either) is there any license required or obtainable that would allow me to trade or sell captive-bred offspring from these imported animals? I have enquired with DEFRA, but have not yet received a response.

Any light that could be shed on this by anyone here would be very much appreciated - thanks!

Post moved by admin - Hi welcome to RAUK, this post was moved as the species forums are reserved for questions and comments regarding native species in the wild or animals that form part of a structured conservation based captive breeding project . Please post pet related questions in the off-topic forum

If you don't mind me asking, how would you/anyone else reading this suggest I go about proving parentage status? Would thoroughly documented photographic records of the parents be suitable, or would I need some form of permanent identification on the animals themselves? They seem a bit small to microchip...

How certain are you, Caleb, on the F2-captive-bred animals being exempt? I was told by someone else on another forum that my imported animals weren't even legal (I've been assured since that they are) as they were wild-caught in another country, and that I'd never get permission to sell the species at all.

I had figured they'd need tiny food as neonates, and was planning to culture a commercially-available earthworm species and supplement with hatchling waxworms and other similar live prey items. I know they've got much smaller mouths than my tiniest baby leopard geckos - would they be likely to take flightless fruit flies?

[QUOTE=herpetologic2]Why did you feel the need to import these slow worms?[/quote]

I did not personally, myself, import them or request that they be imported on my behalf. They were imported by an individual I do not know personally, then offered for sale from a specialist reptile shop here in the North of England. I happened to hear of the shop and the slow worms, did what research I could into their keeping - primarily by quizzing the individual who mentioned the shop to me, as she had successfully been keeping an imported female slow worm as a pet for nearly a decade and had heard of the opportunity to purchase a second animal - and set up a suitable enclosure prior to obtaining my four animals.

[quote]What was wrong with british slowworms? [/quote]

I have never seen a British slow worm. I've only lived here in Britain for the last seven years, have only seen one native reptile (a vivi) near where I live due to not knowing where to look (yep, I'm more aware of where to look now, and intend to attempt observation of wild British slow worms in the new year) ... there isn't anything wrong with British slows, and if I can acquire neonates next autumn (I do not wish to take adult, breeding-age animals from the population, but I do not feel that removing a small number of neonate animals, the majority of which are unlikely to survive in the wild, poses a threat to the wild populations) I would certainly like to set up a separate breeding group of these animals.

[quote]It just makes me wonder if the Italian race slowworm consitutes a non native species of the UK? I am sure that would be open to debate - I know that Italian race grass snakes are considered a different species to the grass snake in the UK - releasing them into the UK would be illegal - is that the same for your slowworms?[/quote]

I do not know if releasing Italian-race slow worms would be legal, and had not in fact considered doing so in any way, shape or form. My animals are kept in a vivarium, indoors, and will remain that way, just as my captive-bred leopard geckos and my captive-bred corn snake will. None of my pets will be released under any circumstances, and my vivariums are secure to ensure they do not escape - for their own protection, as we have pet cats - so the release legalities do not particularly concern me.

If I do have a legal way to sell offspring of any generation, the animals will not be sold as anything other than Italian-origin captive bred PET animals - with a full captive-species care sheet and a contract to the effect that if someone no longer feels capable to keep their animal, that I will refund their money on receipt of the animal back into my custody - that they are absolutely and under no conditions to be released into the wild.

I have to admit I'm worried that the slugs in my garden might carry parasites that I'd prefer not to pass on to my slow worms, hence my hesitancy to collect them... I know that some species of slug and snail do carry some pretty nasty stuff. For the moment, I know my four are eating waxworms with some regularity, even dusted with calcium, and I offer other prey items on occasion, including very small hatchling locusts (which my geckos adore, but the slows don't seem interested in).

And don't worry, I won't be allowing my critters to wind up in the wild, whether they LOOK like native species or not - which is one reason why any British-origin slow worms I keep will be kept separately to my imported guys (I don't want to mix bloodlines - no matter if they're separate subspecies, separate species or just plain geographically separated populations of the same subspecies).

If I posted a link to some photos here of my four animals, would anyone be willing to hazard a guess at species, subspecies, age and gender? I've been told that one of them is absolutely a female (dark copper back, sort of chain-patterned black stripe down the centre, solid black belly, and fairly chunky of build) but we don't know what the other three might be.

Chap-ette, really *grins* Don't let the masculine name fool you - it may be my middle name, but my first name is more feminine!

Okay, here's a link to the first two we got:

http://www.ssthisto.com/VHRStuff/SlowGender

We've been told that "Gretel" is definitely female (the darker copper-coloured individual), but that the person who was looking at them couldn't tell for sure what "Hansel" was. The photos on that page are some two months old, and since then Hansel seems to have lost more of the dorsal stripe and developed speckling in black/dark brown along the brassy-coloured areas of his/her top side.

We'll sort out some more recent photos of Hansel and the other two and post them once I can assemble them on a page for everyone to see.

I don't know if it would be possible to have a culture of slugs, but I'm certainly willing to try it, as I do know that slugs are one of their natural food sources.

Any ideas on how you'd go about doing something like that? Are those slugs hermaphroditic like snails, so I don't need to go out and find a bunch of 'female' slugs and a 'male' slug?

I'm also planning on a culture of earthworms, since they're relatively well documented in keeping - and hopefully they'll be relatively easy to gutload as well to keep my critters healthy.

I knew about the babies from a wild-caught gravid female being considered captive-reared rather than captive-bred (one or both parents being wild-caught).

Has anyone here seen slow worms in the West Yorkshire area? I'd love to observe them in the wild, just to get more hints on how to keep my slows happy and healthy.

[QUOTE=herpetologic2]You still need to have two slugs for the mating to occur as they do not self fertilise - they have both sex organs yet they have to have a partner to tango as it were - same as earthworms, and snails[/quote]

Figured that much, just was hoping I wouldn't need to learn how to tell male slugs from female *grin*

[quote]culturing worms is really easy with a good composter in the garden - I find lots of earthworms in my compost bin [/quote]

Even in wintertime? I was thinking of an indoor setup over winter rather than just ordering worms every other week from our livefood supplier... but if they are equally productive in wintertime outdoors, then I'll get less complaints from the other residents of the house about -more- bugs *grin*

[quote]I hope that you are planning for the long haul with your slowworms as they can get up to 55years in captivity![/quote]

We've also got an African Grey Parrot - and she may well outlive us, so we're no strangers to longlived companions.

One reason I wanted to have reptiles in general is because they live much longer lives than mammals of the same size - they don't leave you when you've only just gotten attached to them.

Wouldn't DNA testing do it if it came to that -

that X neonate came from these two animals Y and Z,
and Y came from male A and female B while
Z came from male C and female D, all of which animals are in captive possession?

[QUOTE=Caleb]I have a leaflet published by the DETR in 1995 that explicitly says "licences [for trade] are not required for captive bred specimens (i.e. specimens born in captivity from captive bred or legally acquired wild taken parents)". [/QUOTE]

Caleb, is there any chance of my getting a copy (if still in current circulation) or digital scan (if it's no longer available anywhere) of that leaflet?

The more documentation I can get in writing, the better I'll feel about owning my animals and trying to breed them.

Hi, im a newbie.

I was just wondering if any of you were going to sell a slow worm, i really like them and think they're cute. if anyone has one for sale, contact me

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You may find this thread of interest:

http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1237 &PN=1

I'm hoping to breed my group of legal imported Slows at some stage in the future, and pending written word back from DEFRA about whether it would be legal for me to offer F1 generation juveniles from imported stock to experienced reptile keepers.... well, the discussion's all there, really.

[QUOTE=boocat]just wondering if you could show me the site you got the slows from. I would appreciate it if it was possible for me to get one.[/quote]

The shop that had the slow worms which were imported as part of a shipment from Russia (I've now got the paperwork on my four, and the shop owner was incorrect as to their origin) does not have any more this year - the importer may bring more in next summer, but there's no guarantee that the shop I got mine from will be buying them. I will be keeping an eye out for more imports, but there won't be any available for six months or more.

[quote]oh yeah and sorry i didnt have time to read this whole thread about the italian slows. so does this meen they are illegal to sell or buy even if they are italian?[/QUOTE]

I'd strongly advise reading the whole thread - there's a lot of good information about the legal status and some of the captivity issues you're asking about.

I've since got a definitive answer back from DEFRA. The imported wild-caught slow worms I have are and were completely legal for me to buy, and so long as I could pass along a copy of the paperwork stating their origins, they would be legal for me to sell although I have no intent of doing so - these guys are my pets as well as potential breeding stock.

Their babies, should I ever have any, are legal for me to sell. And captive-bred descendants of these animals do not require any form of licensing to sell. I intend to keep meticulous records on these guys and any progeny will be photographically recorded along with parentage information to ensure that their ancestry is unlikely to be questioned.

Have you ever kept reptiles before, Boocat? I know it might seem to be a total doddle to keep native reptiles, but I've found that my lot actually are more demanding than either of the other species I keep (leopard geckos and a corn snake) - they don't eat most of the commercially available live food (unless your local shop stocks earthworms!) and they DO require UV lighting and some supplemental heating - my juvenile wouldn't eat at all until I provided all three of those things.

I plan to spend my free time next summer observing wild slow worms to see how I can improve the conditions for my group and help ensure that they will be healthy and able to breed eventually.

Most of the reptiles that are -like- slow worms are generally speaking even more specialist in feeding and care requirements than slow worms are (Burton's legless lizard is a dedicated lizard-eater that generally can't be switched to mice, sheltopusik get to be nearly five feet in length and are partial to snails.... I'm not familiar with the legless skinks, but they'd still almost certainly require UVB lighting at a minimum).

I would recommend waiting until next year to even consider getting a slow worm (you won't be able to find one wild, imported or captive-bred until next year anyway) - and do a great deal of research in the interim. There's not much out there and available on slow worms in captivity, though the Livefoods forum at www.livefoodshop.co.uk/forum is quite informative - there are a couple of keepers of slow worms on there besides myself, one of whom has had the older of her two for nearly a decade. Spend your time thinking about housing, equipment and care requirements - can you spare the space not only for your slow worm's housing, but for the live food housing as well?

One of the other lessons I've had to learn is to keep my hands off of all but one of my slow worms - Hansel 'asks' to come out (insofar as a reptile can 'ask' - he will approach the glass if you look in, and if you open the door, he will come out onto your hands and settle onto your arm) but the others do not like to be disturbed at all. I weigh them every couple of weeks just to make sure everyone's eating and healthy, but that's it. I don't actually SEE each of my slow worms on a daily basis - I see them once or twice a week, but most of their time is spent beneath the substrate in their vivarium. They're not the most visible of reptile pets!

Honestly, I'd second Mick's suggestion that you start with an 'easier' reptile like a leopard gecko - they're nocturnal, relatively easy to house, and make very rewarding pets indeed (If they didn't, I wouldn't be sitting next to nine of 'em, two of which were homebred!) - and they are a great point at which to start getting used to the care requirements of reptiles, easy to feed on commercially available live foods, easy to tame and handle and not particularly pricey to buy either.

Only caveat is that I wouldn't put a leopard gecko into a 'tank' (Fishtank?) - they don't tame down as well in a top-opening enclosure where you look like a bird of prey swooping down on them to pick them up as they do in a front-opening enclosure where you can approach them sideways and coax onto a hand. Several of mine are tame enough that they can be handed to anyone, even folk who are a little frightened of reptiles, and won't do anything alarming.

Then again, I've got geckos like Kurhah who grouses at me when I pick him up and Chara, who is a vicious little eat-beast (now, that is - she had to be assist-fed in the beginning, and she's making up for lost time) who thinks that those big pink things attached to the feeding tongs MUST be giant waxworms.

Ahhh... I think I was talking about slow worms in the beginning here - it's easy to get me off-track about my babies *grin* Any rate, you won't find any slow worms anywhere until next spring/summer at the earliest, so you've got plenty of time to sort out accomodation, heating, lighting, etc if you're absolutely certain that's what you want.