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Aesculapian snake: |
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djp_phillips Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2006 No. of posts: 180  View other posts by djp_phillips |
Posted: 30 Jan 2006 What's going on with the introduction of the Aesculapian snake in britain?, I heard some time back that they found some in the wild... Reptiles & Amphibians of France: www.herpfrance.com European Field Herping Community: www.euroherp.com |
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Dan Kane Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2005 No. of posts: 201  View other posts by Dan Kane |
Posted: 30 Jan 2006 Yes, a gravid female escaped from a zoo near Colwyn Bay, N Wales, layed eggs, and hey presto... There's now a population of Aesculapian Snakes... I may try to find some one day soon... Dan www.randacumbria.moonfruit.com |
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djp_phillips Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2006 No. of posts: 180 View other posts by djp_phillips |
Posted: 30 Jan 2006 but there is only a clutchfull in britain then, they won't be able to reproduce between them...? Reptiles & Amphibians of France: www.herpfrance.com European Field Herping Community: www.euroherp.com |
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Dan Kane Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2005 No. of posts: 201 View other posts by Dan Kane |
Posted: 30 Jan 2006 I think they may have bred, but im not sure, as i've forgotten where I read it Dan www.randacumbria.moonfruit.com |
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Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181 View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 30 Jan 2006 Steve Langham - Chairman 
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
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djp_phillips Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2006 No. of posts: 180 View other posts by djp_phillips |
Posted: 30 Jan 2006 but if only one female escaped, the babies wouldn't be able to interbreed... I think Reptiles & Amphibians of France: www.herpfrance.com European Field Herping Community: www.euroherp.com |
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090  View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 31 Jan 2006 Why not? It is widely thought that many populations are spawned by a single gravid female. The question would be the long-term viability of the population with a total absence of novel genes that would normally be supplied by immigration from adjacent populations. Time will tell, if this population is viable or if the population succumbs to inbreeding depression and loss of vitality in future generations. PS wouldn't this thread have been more appropriately placed in the alien or naturalised forums? This one is for UK native species Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 31 Jan 2006 Yup, Snakes can and do interbreed O-> O+> |
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Dan Kane Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2005 No. of posts: 201 View other posts by Dan Kane |
Posted: 31 Jan 2006 Yes, it would've been more at home in alien species. Next time... Dan www.randacumbria.moonfruit.com |
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djp_phillips Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2006 No. of posts: 180 View other posts by djp_phillips |
Posted: 31 Jan 2006 Ah, ok, so they will breed then, that's interesting Reptiles & Amphibians of France: www.herpfrance.com European Field Herping Community: www.euroherp.com |
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Dan Kane Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2005 No. of posts: 201 View other posts by Dan Kane |
Posted: 31 Jan 2006 I didn't know families bred with each brother and sister... Well, you learn something new every day... Dan www.randacumbria.moonfruit.com |
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djp_phillips Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2006 No. of posts: 180 View other posts by djp_phillips |
Posted: 31 Jan 2006 well yes they can apparently, but then they have genetic defaults Reptiles & Amphibians of France: www.herpfrance.com European Field Herping Community: www.euroherp.com |
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Dan Kane Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2005 No. of posts: 201 View other posts by Dan Kane |
Posted: 01 Feb 2006 Oh... Why's that then? Dan www.randacumbria.moonfruit.com |
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djp_phillips Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2006 No. of posts: 180 View other posts by djp_phillips |
Posted: 01 Feb 2006 well there would be no new genes in their offspring, like as if you had a baby with your sister. You know what would appen there, malformation of the baby. I think it is a similar thing for snakes, although the malformation is less visible Reptiles & Amphibians of France: www.herpfrance.com European Field Herping Community: www.euroherp.com |
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Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster |
Posted: 13 Feb 2006 The Colwyn Bay Aesculapians are doing nicely, and appear to be breeding all or most years - there is certainly a good population there, and there is no evidence of malformations. Inbreeding can often but not always lead to malformations - a lot depends on pot luck, namely what genes were present in the founder population. After all, most populations of any kind of organism on oceanic islands are likely to have been founded by a very small number indeed of founder individuals. If inbreeding always led to malformations, there would be no island populations of most species. Cheers, WW Wolfgang Wüster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/ |
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Tony Phelps Forum Specialist Joined: 09 Mar 2003 No. of posts: 575 View other posts by Tony Phelps |
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 Tis certainly true for Island snake populations, e.g. the Milos Viper has been seperated from the mainland for between 5-4million years. Although there are oddities, if I can call it that, such as the golden lanchead on Quimeda Grande which has a large proportion of intersex individuals - but still a viable population. Tony |
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Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster |
Posted: 15 Feb 2006 [QUOTE=Tony Phelps] Tis certainly true for Island snake populations, e.g. the Milos Viper has been seperated from the mainland for between 5-4million years. Although there are oddities, if I can call it that, such as the golden lanchead on Quimeda Grande which has a large proportion of intersex individuals - but still a viable population. Tony [/QUOTE] The Milos viper and Bothrops insularis represent a slightly different kettle of fish. Where island populations are caused by islands being separated from the mainland, as in the case of Milos or indeed Queimada Grande, then the founder stock is likely to have been large and the likelihood of inbreeding effects smaller. The fact that you do get what appear to be inbreeding effects in Bothrops insularis illustrates the "pot luck" effect concerning the genes in the population at the time of isolation or colony foundation. However, if existing, isolated islands are initially colonised by overwater dispersal, then the founder stock is likely to have been very small indeed (single figures) - and yet, there are thousands of island species that must have originated in this way. Of course, we only know the success stories, because those species are still around, not the species that died out soon after the initial colonisation event due to inbreeding. Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang Wüster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/ |
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090 View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 15 Feb 2006 One interesting aspect of inbreeding depression is, at least theoretically, it is just that a 'depression' in a given populations genetic variability. There are models to show that if a species is not limited by biotic factors it is likely that as the population increases in numbers so will genetic variability. Thus eventually it may be possible for a population with relatively few founders to move beyond inbreeding and become entirely viable with an increasing gene pool. The opposite scenario might occur if the animals were to be heavily limited by biotic factors and overall the numbers of reproductive individuals remained low, deleterious alleles would be bound to come together and eventually spell doom for the population. Examples that spring to mind are the very small number of marsh frogs originally thought to have been introduced into Kent which have thrived, compared, dare I say it, to an isolated adder population which might be ageing with little or low recruitment and no chance of an overall increase in reproductive individuals. Which direction any given population would take would depend as Wolfgang has already stated very much on the actual genes present in the founder individuals. This influencing the early viability of the population and very much coupled to factors present in the populations environment such as availability of food, competition, predation, suitability of habitat etc. etc. etc. Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
- Aesculapian snake |
