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Ashdown Forest: |
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Jim Finnie Member Joined: 11 Aug 2005 No. of posts: 6  View other posts by Jim Finnie |
Posted: 11 Aug 2005 I was birding in the Ashdown Forest today, walking in an area off the beaten track, when I saw a thinnish grey or perhaps pale olive green coloured snake of about 50cm in length. A few steps later I disturbed another of the same colouring, but this time it was only about 10-12cm long. I am no expert, but could they have been 'smooth snakes'? |
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Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181 View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 11 Aug 2005 Jim, Take a look at this link..... http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/identification.htm#native It should help with ID. Steve Langham - Chairman 
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
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Jim Finnie Member Joined: 11 Aug 2005 No. of posts: 6 View other posts by Jim Finnie |
Posted: 12 Aug 2005 Vicar, Many thanks for the link. I think they were 'smooth snakes' that I saw.
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Iowarth Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 222 View other posts by Iowarth |
Posted: 12 Aug 2005 Might I ask whereabouts in the Ashdown Forest this was? If the identification was correct then this could be very important as there have been no historical records from the Ashdown Forest, nor, so far as I am aware any releases. Might these have been Grass Snakes in which the yellowish collar was not at all pronounced? Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme |
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Jim Finnie Member Joined: 11 Aug 2005 No. of posts: 6 View other posts by Jim Finnie |
Posted: 12 Aug 2005 As well as being interested in ornithology I have been a fresh water angler for more years than I care to remember. On numerous occasions I have seen Grass Snakes in the water, or on the bank, I am pretty sure that I could reliably identify one of those. Over the years I have also seen the occasional adder, in my experience they are difficult to mistake. So, my original message was prompted by a process of ellimination! I'm not sure that I should give the Grid Reference here and now, but I can say that the sighting was on high ground, WELL away from water, which presumably again suggests other than a Grass Snake. I would be very happy to share accurate sighting location details off-line with an appropriate coordinator, or similar.
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Iowarth Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 222 View other posts by Iowarth |
Posted: 12 Aug 2005 Hi Jim Thanks for your reply. Certainly it does sound as though your identification is correct - although I must point out that Grass Sankes are not restricted to low or wet ground. You are quite correct about not posting the grid reference here. Perhaps you would send it to myself or Chris Gleed-Owen (Chris G-O) via private messenger. Alternatively you can email us at webmaster@herpconstrust.org.uk or chris.go@herpconstrust.org.uk respectively. (Bear in mind that the HCT is the Senior Partner in the Smooth Snake SAP so is the appropriate body). If, on a future occasion, you could get a photograph this would be invaluable. Many thanks Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme |
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Jim Finnie Member Joined: 11 Aug 2005 No. of posts: 6 View other posts by Jim Finnie |
Posted: 13 Aug 2005 Chris, I have sent you the detailed directions by email.
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Iowarth Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 222 View other posts by Iowarth |
Posted: 13 Aug 2005 Jim Many thanks for your excellent directions forwarded onto appropriate people (and I hope to go and look myself as well). Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme |
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Mick Member Joined: 10 Jun 2005 No. of posts: 184 View other posts by Mick |
Posted: 13 Aug 2005 Guys, i'd be as nicely surprised & excited as you if there does turn out to be Smooth snakes in ol' Winnie the Pooh's Ashdown Forest. It'd be a simply brilliant little boost for the species here in Britain, so, best of luck with the search & identifying. And of course, it goes without saying that you've gotta keep grid ref' details under your hats. No doubt you'll soon enough let us know of your finds, & IF there are indeed Smooth snakes there then a photo', or two would be awesome! Well, here's hoping,..all the best.  |
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calumma Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 351 View other posts by calumma |
Posted: 14 Aug 2005 Jim, I'm running a reptile survey training workshop for rangers at Ashdown in September and would be interested in learning more about your observation. Could you please also email me details directly at the address below (click on Kent Records). As a general impression, I think it unlikely that Ashdown would support smooth snake. Certainly there are no historical records of smooth snake or sand lizard for the area. The geology doesn't seem quite right. However, never say never! Lee Brady Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant |
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Iowarth Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 222 View other posts by Iowarth |
Posted: 14 Aug 2005 Hi Lee Not sure when Jim might read your entry but I have emailed his detailed information direct to you. Sorry to miss you out initially - solely due to the fact that the sighting is in East Sussex rather than Kent. Nonetheless could tie in well with your training workshop. Agree totally with you regarding geology etc - but you never know - this is at the western extremity of the forest where things appear to be a little different - and all of our herps foll us now and again! Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme |
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Iowarth Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 222 View other posts by Iowarth |
Posted: 14 Aug 2005 Whoops - last line read "fool" - not "foll" ! Clearly typed by a foll ! Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme |
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calumma Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 351 View other posts by calumma |
Posted: 14 Aug 2005 Chris, Thanks for the details. It will be interesting to look into during the workshop. I will also ask David King for his thoughts. Lee Brady Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant |
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Jim Finnie Member Joined: 11 Aug 2005 No. of posts: 6 View other posts by Jim Finnie |
Posted: 14 Aug 2005 Hi Chris and Lee, In birding we always look to the most likely identification, rather than the exotic. I guess the same applies to snakes. From what I have read in recent days it does seem unlikely to have been Smooth Snakes. On the other hand I think that they were neither Adders nor Grass Snakes, but I am no expert! Perhaps if I say a little more about my sightings it will help in the identification. I was moving in an area of dense underfoot vegetation. It was clumpy soil covered by long, dense, very dry grass. Because of this I was placing my feet with care (very slow progress). Looking down I had my first sighting as I was about to place my right foot. The snake was beating a hasty retreat ahead of me and to my right. I was immediately struck by how thin it was. I would describe it as pencil thin, about 50cm long and, I think, grey or pale olive green in colour. But colouring was difficult to accurately evaluate because it was moving rapidly through well lit as well as shaded areas. I only saw its top and It was in view for only a few moments. I noticed nether markings or scales, it seemed to be smooth skinned and uniform in colour. A few steps later I saw the second snake, very short but of the same colouring etc û simply a shorter version of the first one!
Given the presence of a juvenile (?) perhaps they were both very young snakes, could this explain matters? Hope this helps, I wouldnÆt want you going on a wild goose chase. J Jim |
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Iowarth Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 222 View other posts by Iowarth |
Posted: 14 Aug 2005 Jim Thanks for the extra info - and don't worry - we all actively enjoy looking for and at our native herps - every report is worth following up, and sometimes we get some very pleasurable surprises.
Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme |
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Barry Member Joined: 14 Aug 2005 No. of posts: 6 View other posts by Barry |
Posted: 14 Aug 2005 Thanks Lee, I'll take a look at the NGR and see if anything's still there ! SARG gets 100's of herp records from the Ashdown Forest Rangers every year, so this would really be a shock - still as it's on my doorstep it's a good excuse to go for a nice walk. If I see any of you there I'll buy you all an ice cream ! Cheers, Barry Kemp - Sussex Amphibian & Reptile Group |
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Chris G-O Member Joined: 14 May 2003 No. of posts: 36 View other posts by Chris G-O |
Posted: 21 Nov 2005 Hi all, Pencil thin and beating a hasty retreat does sound like an immature grass snake to me. Ironically this being our fastest species of snake, it's the one most likely to leave you wondering "hmm, i wonder if that was a smooth snake...?" !! Anyway, it will certainly be of interest to hear results of any survey in Ashdown Forest in due course; it's a large blank on the reptile map as far as i can see. cheers, Chris Chris Gleed-Owen, Research & Monitoring Officer, The HCT & BHS Research Committee Chair |
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Barry Member Joined: 14 Aug 2005 No. of posts: 6 View other posts by Barry |
Posted: 22 Nov 2005 Chris, I'm not sure why you think Ashdown Forest is a large blank on the reptile map? - SxBRC is provided with large amounts of records every year for herps from the forest (mainly from the Rangers). Barry Barry Kemp - Sussex Amphibian & Reptile Group |
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Chris G-O Member Joined: 14 May 2003 No. of posts: 36 View other posts by Chris G-O |
Posted: 22 Nov 2005 Hi Barry, Ok, sorry, i'll qualify that - it's a large blank on the rare reptile map (HCT Rare Species database), i.e. no historic or recent records of smooth snake or sand lizard. If you have historical records of either species i'd be really interested to hear. I know Sussex has a great 'Millennium Atlas' of which i have a copy. cheers, Chris Chris Gleed-Owen, Research & Monitoring Officer, The HCT & BHS Research Committee Chair |
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djp_phillips Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2006 No. of posts: 180 View other posts by djp_phillips |
Posted: 28 Jan 2006 [QUOTE=Jim Finnie] Vicar, Many thanks for the link. I think they were 'smooth snakes' that I saw.[/
á [/QUOTE]Smooth snakes are very descrete and slow, it's more lickly to be a grass snake, or maybe even a lizard Reptiles & Amphibians of France: www.herpfrance.com European Field Herping Community: www.euroherp.com |
- Ashdown Forest |