RAUK - Archived Forum - Captive breeding of slow worms?

This summer I became the happy owner of a group of imported (apparently Italian) Anguis fragilis, at least one of whom is female. I do hope that one of them is male and that I can attempt breeding these animals in captivity.

Are there any other folk out there who are breeding slow worms, whether of British origin or otherwise, who could offer any tips?

And equally importantly, though I know I don't require a license to own my animals (or native British ones, either) is there any license required or obtainable that would allow me to trade or sell captive-bred offspring from these imported animals? I have enquired with DEFRA, but have not yet received a response.

Any light that could be shed on this by anyone here would be very much appreciated - thanks!

Post moved by admin - Hi welcome to RAUK, this post was moved as the species forums are reserved for questions and comments regarding native species in the wild or animals that form part of a structured conservation based captive breeding project . Please post pet related questions in the off-topic forum

If you don't mind me asking, how would you/anyone else reading this suggest I go about proving parentage status? Would thoroughly documented photographic records of the parents be suitable, or would I need some form of permanent identification on the animals themselves? They seem a bit small to microchip...

How certain are you, Caleb, on the F2-captive-bred animals being exempt? I was told by someone else on another forum that my imported animals weren't even legal (I've been assured since that they are) as they were wild-caught in another country, and that I'd never get permission to sell the species at all.

I had figured they'd need tiny food as neonates, and was planning to culture a commercially-available earthworm species and supplement with hatchling waxworms and other similar live prey items. I know they've got much smaller mouths than my tiniest baby leopard geckos - would they be likely to take flightless fruit flies?

Just a little point why did you feel that you needed to import these slowworms? -

JC

What was wrong with british slowworms?

I have slowworms in my garden - I breed them in compost heaps and they do just fine on small earth worms, small slugs, I have had some in captivity over the years and the neonates eat small worms and I remember my dad feeding them small micro crickets. I have collected slowworms when I was younger (10 yrs) and my parents have a thriving population in their garden. They live within rockeries, around the ponds etc -

It just makes me wonder if the Italian race slowworm consitutes a non native species of the UK? I am sure that would be open to debate - I know that Italian race grass snakes are considered a different species to the grass snake in the UK - releasing them into the UK would be illegal - is that the same for your slowworms?

JC

[QUOTE=herpetologic2]Why did you feel the need to import these slow worms?[/quote]

I did not personally, myself, import them or request that they be imported on my behalf. They were imported by an individual I do not know personally, then offered for sale from a specialist reptile shop here in the North of England. I happened to hear of the shop and the slow worms, did what research I could into their keeping - primarily by quizzing the individual who mentioned the shop to me, as she had successfully been keeping an imported female slow worm as a pet for nearly a decade and had heard of the opportunity to purchase a second animal - and set up a suitable enclosure prior to obtaining my four animals.

[quote]What was wrong with british slowworms? [/quote]

I have never seen a British slow worm. I've only lived here in Britain for the last seven years, have only seen one native reptile (a vivi) near where I live due to not knowing where to look (yep, I'm more aware of where to look now, and intend to attempt observation of wild British slow worms in the new year) ... there isn't anything wrong with British slows, and if I can acquire neonates next autumn (I do not wish to take adult, breeding-age animals from the population, but I do not feel that removing a small number of neonate animals, the majority of which are unlikely to survive in the wild, poses a threat to the wild populations) I would certainly like to set up a separate breeding group of these animals.

[quote]It just makes me wonder if the Italian race slowworm consitutes a non native species of the UK? I am sure that would be open to debate - I know that Italian race grass snakes are considered a different species to the grass snake in the UK - releasing them into the UK would be illegal - is that the same for your slowworms?[/quote]

I do not know if releasing Italian-race slow worms would be legal, and had not in fact considered doing so in any way, shape or form. My animals are kept in a vivarium, indoors, and will remain that way, just as my captive-bred leopard geckos and my captive-bred corn snake will. None of my pets will be released under any circumstances, and my vivariums are secure to ensure they do not escape - for their own protection, as we have pet cats - so the release legalities do not particularly concern me.

If I do have a legal way to sell offspring of any generation, the animals will not be sold as anything other than Italian-origin captive bred PET animals - with a full captive-species care sheet and a contract to the effect that if someone no longer feels capable to keep their animal, that I will refund their money on receipt of the animal back into my custody - that they are absolutely and under no conditions to be released into the wild.

I have to admit I'm worried that the slugs in my garden might carry parasites that I'd prefer not to pass on to my slow worms, hence my hesitancy to collect them... I know that some species of slug and snail do carry some pretty nasty stuff. For the moment, I know my four are eating waxworms with some regularity, even dusted with calcium, and I offer other prey items on occasion, including very small hatchling locusts (which my geckos adore, but the slows don't seem interested in).

And don't worry, I won't be allowing my critters to wind up in the wild, whether they LOOK like native species or not - which is one reason why any British-origin slow worms I keep will be kept separately to my imported guys (I don't want to mix bloodlines - no matter if they're separate subspecies, separate species or just plain geographically separated populations of the same subspecies).

If I posted a link to some photos here of my four animals, would anyone be willing to hazard a guess at species, subspecies, age and gender? I've been told that one of them is absolutely a female (dark copper back, sort of chain-patterned black stripe down the centre, solid black belly, and fairly chunky of build) but we don't know what the other three might be.

See!, as i said, a perfectly caring & responsible chap.

Sure, ssthisto, let's have a gander at your pic's.

Chap-ette, really *grins* Don't let the masculine name fool you - it may be my middle name, but my first name is more feminine!

Okay, here's a link to the first two we got:

http://www.ssthisto.com/VHRStuff/SlowGender

We've been told that "Gretel" is definitely female (the darker copper-coloured individual), but that the person who was looking at them couldn't tell for sure what "Hansel" was. The photos on that page are some two months old, and since then Hansel seems to have lost more of the dorsal stripe and developed speckling in black/dark brown along the brassy-coloured areas of his/her top side.

We'll sort out some more recent photos of Hansel and the other two and post them once I can assemble them on a page for everyone to see.

Hi Sshisto, Gretel is female, in my opinion Hansel is male.

Some might not agree as Hansel still has signs of immature colouration, which typically persists into adulthood only in females. But I believe Hansels hatched flanks and the last signs of the dorsal stripe will fade even further as he matures to give a uniform dorsal colouration typical of a male.

It is possible if you have enough animals to compare, to sex slow-worms by the relative heaviness of the jaw, males have a heavier, more thick set jaw than females. Is this noticeable with Hansel and Gretel?

How certain are you, Caleb, on the F2-captive-bred animals being exempt?

would they be likely to take flightless fruit flies?

I agree with Caleb regarding F2 CB and the Wildlife and Countryside Act, the question has come up before on the forums.

By definition F2 CB are not 'wild animals' and therefore are not covered by the WCA, though as Caleb has stated it will be up to you to prove this. Be careful of the subtleties though, for instance if you caught a gravid female and it gave birth in captivity, the offspring would be, I think I'm right in saying, 'captive reared' and therefore the WCA would still apply.

PS Sshisto would it be possilbe to breed your own white slugs in captivity and thus avoid parasites? Slow-worms really do like them.

Caleb did you try ants when you kept them? Just wondered as slow-worms are often associated with ant hills and also often found alongside ants under refugia.

I tend to think that both ants and slow-worms appreciated the same levels of humidity and warmth, but I often receive reports that the slow-worms were found under refugia eating ants. I've never seen them take ants.. has anyone seen slowies actually eating ants???

(I even had one report this year of a grass snake devouring old egg shells in a compost heap.. funny how these associations sometimes arise )

Hi all

I think that slowworms would probably go for the eggs, larva and winged ants? I often see them in the middle of ant nests which have developed under ACO's laid out for reptile surveys. I have even found them in wood ants nests!

JC

I don't know if it would be possible to have a culture of slugs, but I'm certainly willing to try it, as I do know that slugs are one of their natural food sources.

Any ideas on how you'd go about doing something like that? Are those slugs hermaphroditic like snails, so I don't need to go out and find a bunch of 'female' slugs and a 'male' slug?

I'm also planning on a culture of earthworms, since they're relatively well documented in keeping - and hopefully they'll be relatively easy to gutload as well to keep my critters healthy.

I knew about the babies from a wild-caught gravid female being considered captive-reared rather than captive-bred (one or both parents being wild-caught).

Has anyone here seen slow worms in the West Yorkshire area? I'd love to observe them in the wild, just to get more hints on how to keep my slows happy and healthy.

You still need to have two slugs for the mating to occur as they do not self fertilise - they have both sex organs yet they have to have a partner to tango as it were - same as earthworms, and snails

culturing worms is really easy with a good composter in the garden - I find lots of earthworms in my compost bin and this is were my slowworms reside rather than indoors - I hope that you are planning for the long haul with your slowworms as they can get up to 55years in captivity!

JC

Caleb did you try ants when you kept them? Just wondered as slow-worms are often associated with ant hills and also often found alongside ants under refugia.

I don't know if it would be possible to have a culture of slugs, but I'm certainly willing to try it, as I do know that slugs are one of their natural food sources.

Are those slugs hermaphroditic like snails

I agree Paul, I would go further and say that slow-worms only tolerate ants under artificial cover objects (ACOs) up to a point. I've often found that when ants nests have become well established that it has been necessary to move refugia to get them to produce slow-worms again. I assume that the activity of the ants eventually becomes too irritating to the slow-worms.

It would not appear that this observation would support the theory that the slow-worms are feeding on any given lifestage of the ants, though as ever I'm willing to be corrected by anyone who has actually observed slow-worms feeding on eggs, larva, winged or wingless ants