Notice: Undefined index: forum_id in /home/sites/herpetofauna.org.uk/public_html/forum_archive/forum_posts.php on line 69 Deprecated: mysql_connect(): The mysql extension is deprecated and will be removed in the future: use mysqli or PDO instead in /home/sites/herpetofauna.org.uk/public_html/forum_archive/forum_posts.php on line 73

RAUK - Archived Forum - European pond tortoise Emys orbicularis

This contains the Forum posts up until the end of March, 2011. Posts may be viewed but cannot be edited or replied to - nor can new posts be made. More recent posts can be seen on the new Forum at http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/

Forum Home

European pond tortoise Emys orbicularis:

Author Message
FB knowles
Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
No. of posts: 5


View other posts by FB knowles
Posted: 16 Jul 2003
Hi

Does anyone out there no about the status of the European pond tortoise in southern England. There were rumours of it being found breeding at frencham ponds some years back. i know that it is a very long lived species, so i guess colonies could exist for many years without actually breeding. But does anybody have any up to date info?

Fairbrass Knowles
Fairbrass Knowles
Martin
Senior Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 87


View other posts by Martin
Posted: 17 Jul 2003
I've looked in a lot of ponds within Hampshire for terrapins and I've not seen any emys. All the terrapins I've spotted have been North American species, so I'm not much help.

Martin.
FB knowles
Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
No. of posts: 5


View other posts by FB knowles
Posted: 17 Jul 2003
Hi Martin,

Yes i have seen the red eared terrapins too!! even saw quite a few in ponds on a recent trip to Brittany, i wonder if they can breed in the warmer parts of Europe?

Cheers, Fairbrass
Fairbrass Knowles
David Bird
Forum Specialist
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 515


View other posts by David Bird
Posted: 17 Jul 2003
There is a possibility that the Red-eared terrapin may have bred in this country. The public had used the wildfowl lake in Bristol zoo as a dumping place for large red ears, one year at least hatchlings were found which are never usually dumped by people. The problem is that the lake has islands which have marmosets on and they have small huts which have heat lamps in so one of the female red ears may have manaaged to lay her eggs under one of the lamps which would have aided incubation but she may have just laid in the open. They do come from reasonably far up in the U.S. North Illinois which is not that warm so much of Europe would be in a climate range for any specimens that may have come from a northern population
British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker.
David Bird
Forum Specialist
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 515


View other posts by David Bird
Posted: 17 Jul 2003
The European Pond Tortoise was introduced into Frensham Hall ponds between 1905-10. In 1949 nine specimens were found in a pond in North Surrey but I cannot find any other locality data. The place where there is a possibility of native European Pond Tortoises is the Norfolk broads where specimens have been found on and off for several years in places that are well out of the way of areas of population or main roads and are not known to be one of the older known introductions.
British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker.
Chris G-O
Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
No. of posts: 36


View other posts by Chris G-O
Posted: 17 Jan 2004
European pond terrapins have been seen in the last 10 years or so on the Norfolk Broads, sightings came from RSPB staff i think. I think there were intros there about 100 yrs ago.

Out of interest, i saw a red-eared terrapin on the 5th Jan 2004 in an ornamental pond in Venice. It wasn't exactly warm (c.11 degrees), but there didn't seem to be anywhere for it to hibernate really.

cheers,
Chris
Chris Gleed-Owen, Research & Monitoring Officer, The HCT & BHS Research Committee Chair
chas
Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
No. of posts: 27


View other posts by chas
Posted: 31 Jan 2005
A "Survival Anglia" wildlife film producer met with a large female Emys orb. (Euro. pond tortoise) crossing a narrow, isolated lane in N. Norfolk in the 1990s.
Charles Snell
-LAF
Senior Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2003
No. of posts: 317


View other posts by -LAF
Posted: 31 Jan 2005
The NBN gateway has a listing for Emys at lakes nr Leicester. The same lakes are also listed as having red-ears though.

Lee.
Lee Fairclough
Ben Potterton
Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
No. of posts: 3


View other posts by Ben Potterton
Posted: 20 Aug 2005

Hi I have recently been given an adult male European Pond Turtle that was found in the Norfolk Broad area and have been told of 4 others that have been found in the general area.

DEFRA tell me that none exist in the Broads network but 5 inderviduals seem unusual.

I have been collecting all surplus specimens from UK zoo's and hope to breed from them, but want to know if a wild or feral population exists?

Any ideas?


David Bird
Forum Specialist
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 515


View other posts by David Bird
Posted: 20 Aug 2005
Dont think DEFRA would know anything about reptiles in this country they go outside for their advice. Pond Tortoises can be very difficult to see and identify with certainty in the wild where there are lots of reeds and other vegetation. I went to a ditch attached to a marsh in Montenegro this year where both Emysand Mauremyswere present in quantity along with Green frogs, last year the Green frogs were there but I never found any turtles. This year was much drier and a lot of the ditches between the small fields were dry so they had probably been forced into the larger one that still held water.
There were individuals seen in the early 1970's by a friend of mine in one of the broads will try to see if I still have the information. Would be interested to know where your specimens have been found( by P.M.) in case it is the same area. I know it was supposed to be quite a long way from any villages or roads.
Have you been told by the zoos where there specimens are from in the wild as it would be best to breed specimens of the same subspecies if possible. I know when I was a Herp TAG member they were trying to sort out the various subspecies from photographs but dont know the result and I am not that certain that the subspecies can be reliably distinguished by markings and colour as I have been to areas where one sees a variety of the colour patterns. I would certainly make certain you can recognise the one from the Norfolk Broads in case one day someone finds some information that proves they are native like happened with Rana lessonae and we will need as many of the broads specimens as possible.


David
British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker.
Ben Potterton
Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
No. of posts: 3


View other posts by Ben Potterton
Posted: 21 Aug 2005

Thanks David, All of those found in and around the Norfolk Broads have come via the RSPCA and they have not been able to give me any indication on the exact spot that they were found.

I am keeping the Norfolk specimens seperate from the others that I have, the Herp TAG work was by Joe Blossom, but sadly the zoo's concerned had no idea as to the origin of the stock.

Joe Blossom also has some that he keeps outside all year, I will show him my stock and with any luck we will be able to decide on a plan of action.

Ben.

 


chas
Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
No. of posts: 27


View other posts by chas
Posted: 22 Aug 2005

David Bird's post about keeping the Norfolk specimens (Emys orbicularis) separate is an important issue.

Remains of the European pond tortoise have been found in East Anglia (and I believe particularly in Norfolk) dating back to as late as ca. 5000 years ago. Some authors, e.g. Marr, J. E., Shipley, A.E. (1904) describe the species as being once common in the fens. There is, therefore, no doubt that it is a native species, the question being, are the specimens presently being found the result of an introduction or the remains of a relict population which is, with climatic warming, possibly now able to breed with greater frequency? (In Poland they do not successfully breed most years but still maintain viable populations aided by their longevity). They presumably persisted for sometime after the date of the fossil finds; even as late as the time of the Roman invasion Britain still had a milder climate than at present.

There is also no doubt that introductions to East Anglia have occurred; for example some were released in Blaxhall and Little Glemham in Suffolk between 1894 - 95.

There have been sporadic sightings in Norfolk for some time.  Earlier on this site, I mentioned the finding of a large female in north Norfolk (Mike Linley- Anglia TV scientific contributor) and other posts do seem to be suggesting that these finds are not uncommon.  The earliest reference I can find is one accidentally excavated alive in fen peat at Ludham, Norfolk in 1904 where it had apparently dug itself in for hibernation.  During the milder climates experienced 5000 years ago, populations also existed in countries bordering the Baltic Sea, such as Denmark and Sweden.  The Danish and Swedish populations have also gone extinct in the interim whereas other populations around the Baltic still persist in north eastern Germany, Poland, Latvia and Lithuania. If the European pond tortoise story mirrors that of the pool frog Rana lessonae in Norfolk, post-glacial colonisation by Emys could have occurred in a west to east direction from the Baltic area. (See the Snell, Tetteh and Evans paper mentioned on the pool frog reintroduction pages on this website û I could email a copy if contacted by ôpmö button (private mail)).  The pool frog story was also complicated by introductions of the species or related species.  There is no doubt that some or all of the recent pond tortoise finds could be as result of introduction and genetic testing would be interesting to come to some kind of conclusion.  It would be my guess that if any of the Norfolk Emys have a chance of being native they ought to be more closely related to those in north-eastern Germany and Poland than to those in France or more southern European countries, as was the case with the pool frog.  (As late as about 9000 years ago there was a land bridge across the North Sea between Scandinavia, the Low Countries and East Anglia).

 

chas38586.2678703704
Charles Snell
David Bird
Forum Specialist
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 515


View other posts by David Bird
Posted: 22 Aug 2005
In reptile terms there also seemed to have been a warmer period in the 1700's becoming cooler by the mid 1800's now if this was still cooling down from the Atlantic period 6000-3000 yrs BC I do not know. The Aesculapian snake Zamenis longissimus was still common around Copenhagen in Denmark and in some areas of N.Germany in the 1700's and had gone by the mid 1800's when colder weather appears to have been the norm. Emys seems to be no longer in Denmark but it would be interesting to know of its history there and when the main population died out. There were some found in the 1990's in Central Jutland last record 1999 but it was not known if they were part of a relict population or the remnants of an earlier introduction (H.Bringoe pers.comm.). I do not know what sort of recordings were being made of Emys in the 1700's in Denmark perhaps an enquiry on Herpnet from someone here may give a better answer.

David
British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker.
chas
Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
No. of posts: 27


View other posts by chas
Posted: 22 Aug 2005

It has always been assumed in Denmark that the pond tortoise died out between the iron and Bronze ages, but as David Bird points out in his last post, some were found in the 1990s of unknown origin.  I have found two Danish web sites on Emys (in Danish) both seem to suggest that there are still some Emys in central Jutland.  One of the sites also indicated that there are a few on the island of Bornholm and that those on Jutland had been genetically tested (8 were caught and seven were tested) the results showing that the animals were not of the type found further south in Europe.  This, of course, increases the likelihood (but not proving the case) of there being being a relict population.


Charles Snell
herpetologic2
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
No. of posts: 1369


View other posts by herpetologic2
Posted: 14 Nov 2005

 

Just an update really I have seen European Pond terrapins in Essex - unfortuantely they were for sale in a local exotic pet store - along with french marsh frogs!

JC


Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant -
visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife
Ben Potterton
Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
No. of posts: 3


View other posts by Ben Potterton
Posted: 21 Nov 2005

Dear All, I have been told that European Pond Tortoise have been breeding for many years in the southern Norfolk Broads and have had reports of several populations in Strumpshaw, Surlingham and Ranworth.

I am told that very young Emys were seen throughout the 1980's, I am going to speak to the Norfolk Records Office and see what else I can find.


Mick
Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
No. of posts: 184


View other posts by Mick
Posted: 21 Nov 2005
Personally, from all i've seen, heard, & read about over the years, i myself have very little doubt that European Pond Terrapins (& possibly American Red Eared Sliders) have done & do breed here in suitably mild areas of England with limited success in our warmest years. As Chas said in mentioning about Polish terrapins, these reptiles have longevity on their side with which to take full advantage of & annualy attempt to try & breed successfully. And young, alert little terrapins are hardly going to be easy little critters to spot in suitably lush habitat, such as fenlands.  Even in ideally warm enough years here for breeding , maybe only a quarter to half of a clutch of eggs make it to hatchling success, & then there's predators like Pike & Herons which no doubt keep surviving hatchling numbers down.         Mick38677.6074305556
Peter Sutton
Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
No. of posts: 22


View other posts by Peter Sutton
Posted: 30 Aug 2006
I photographed an adult Emys at one of the Tilgate lakes in Crawley, West Sussex in 1987. It has since been drained to remove a substantial population of Red-eared Terrapins. Both populations introduced some time ago. I understood that all modern UK sightings of Emys originated from introductions on account of its disappearance as a result of a post-bronze age deterioration in climate.

- European pond tortoise Emys orbicularis

Content here