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Fire-bellied toad?: |
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jwood Member Joined: 13 Jul 2003 No. of posts: 5  View other posts by jwood |
Posted: 13 Jul 2003 We have just spotted what we think is probably a fire-bellied toad Bombina bombina in our garden in Hackney. Could anyone confirm? It is about 4cm long, with a mid-brown colour on its upper surface with darker brown mottled patches. It has a warty, almost spiny upper surface and a smooth underside. The underside is dark brown with a bright orange mottled pattern. It seems to spend most of its time on the waterweed or in the shady corner of our pond with just its eyes breaking surface. It was making a 'hoop-hoop-hoop' noise that was repeated pretty continuously at the same pitch at about 1-2 second intervals.
It was showing rather agressive behaviour that has us worrying about the fate of other frogs/toads in our pond... The toad has been present in our pond for about 3 weeks now. Normally it is quite timid, diving down below the surface whenever it spies us. However, around dusk after a particularly hot day in London, we had a few friends over and were playing music in the back garden. We noticed a regular 'hoop-hoop-hoop' accompaniment to the music, sounding remarkably similar to the 'hoop-hoop' noise often produced by Brazilian Samba bands (which was playing at the time). Is this common terratorial behaviour for such toads? The same evening we saw the reappearance of the Europen Tree Frog Hyla arborea. Does anyone know if either of these species are known to be established in London? For more photos see, http://soi.city.ac.uk/~jwo/frog Jo Wood, Hackney, London.
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 13 Jul 2003 It is a Bombina species and a male because of the call and the spines on the warts. It looks like an Oriental fire belly Bombina orientalis to me which can be found with a brown back but is usually green and black it does not look quite right for the European fire bellied toad Bombina bombina with the belly pattern and these are usually a lighter brown on the back on all the ones I have seen. It should not harm the other amphibians unless they try to eat it or are put in a small container in close contact with it as it does have a very strong toxin that will kill other species that may attack it.. I think it is looking for a female to mater with as they breed all throughout the summer laying small batches of eggs every few weeks rather than once in the spring like our amphibians. British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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jwood Member Joined: 13 Jul 2003 No. of posts: 5 View other posts by jwood |
Posted: 15 Jul 2003 Whatever the type of Bombina, it looks like we have at least two of them now in our pond. We have now seen them both at the same time. I was alerted to this when hearing their now regular evening song change from a single to two-tone call. It sounds like one of them consistently calls about a tone higher than the other. I have managed to get photos of both of them from above - does this help with identification? I have also heard similar more distant calls from other neighbouring gardens. Let's hope there are some females out there. Does anyone know if they have been known to breed 'in the wild' and establish colonies in the UK? Jo Wood, Hackney.
The first...
and the second...
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090  View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 15 Jul 2003 There is some information concerning Bombina spp. on the ID pages at http://www.gjscenics.co.uk/rauk/Yellow-bellied%20Toad.htm
Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
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-LAF Senior Member Joined: 03 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 317 View other posts by -LAF |
Posted: 15 Jul 2003 I'm the first to admit that I'm not an amphibian specialist, but that certainly looks like Bombina bombina to me. As far as I know non of the Bombina seem to do well in Britain, yellow bellies may breed but populations seem to eventually die out, fire bellies breed less frequently and tend to demise faster. Despite their popularity in the pet trade I don't know of any breeding records from introduced oriental fire bellies, and I suspect that our climatre is unsuitable for these subtropical toads. That said, they may well have survived hibernation and this summer has been an absolute cracker, so the two European species at least should do well. I know that there was a population of fire bellies alive in London in the late 80's but I think it dissappeared. It is possible that it simply moved (I'll try and find out where it was originally). The appearance of the second toad could well mean that there is a population locally, they should do well in urban gardens as these gardens are sheltered and the toads only require small pools for breeding (unlike our native toads) and are noxious to cats (unlike our frogs). As you can imagine, being small and brown above they are very easily overlooked. It might be worth asking any local friends or neighboursif they hear them calling too. Anyway, a fantastic find. Bombina and Hyla living in your garden! Wow! Cheers, Lee. Lee Fairclough |
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Caleb Forum Coordinator Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 448 View other posts by Caleb |
Posted: 16 Jul 2003 These are definitely not B. bombina- B. bombina do not have black spines on the warts, whereas B. orientalis and B. variegata do. B. bombina usually have more black than red/yellow/orange on the belly, and have white spots in the black areas. In addition, B. bombina don't have red/yellow/orange tips to the toes, the other two species do. I'd say that these are B. orientalis- the black markings on the back are more characteristic of orientalis, the the belly markings look more like orientalis than variegata, and the general build is slighter than most variegata- but I'm not 100% sure. Brownish B. orientalis are not unusual, though the green ones are more familiar in the pet trade. B. orientalis do very well in outdoor enclosures in this country, so I can't see why they shouldn't breed in the wild... |
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 16 Jul 2003 Thanks Caleb perhaps I should have said originally why I thought these were B.orientalis. I have kept 4 species of Bombina over 30 years and have bred 3 out of 4, I have also seen the European species in the wild numerous times. I will try to sort out some pics of all species for the ID page. I know the European species have been the ones that have been introduced but it is B.orientalis that is far more commonly kept and bred and widespread in the pet trade. As far as the distribution of B.orientalis goes I would not call N.E.China and the eastern part of the former U.S.S.R as sub tropical. These could be adults that have been released in a local garden pond and not part of a breeding colony. I would suggest asking some of the local neighbours one who must be a keeper of amphibians as to the origin of the specimens, they are probably wondering why they have all disappeared from their pond and moved elsewhere. British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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-LAF Senior Member Joined: 03 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 317 View other posts by -LAF |
Posted: 16 Jul 2003 Fair enough, I just remember a friend who bred ots of B. orienalis and used a warm setup including a heated pool in the viv. I always remember them as being very vivid green and black above, like the ones here. I never knew they came in brown! After a quick search they certainly ahve an amazing range, Korea in the south to soutrern Siberia. I wonder if the more tropical frogs are more brightly coloured? Out of interest, what is species no. 4? Only ever heard of the afformentioned 3. Cheers, Lee. Lee Fairclough |
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Matt Harris Senior Member Joined: 03 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 196 View other posts by Matt Harris |
Posted: 16 Jul 2003 Bombina maxima http://www.petpet.ne.jp/zukan/amphibia/29.jpg Gwent Amphibian and Reptile Group (GARG) |
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-LAF Senior Member Joined: 03 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 317 View other posts by -LAF |
Posted: 16 Jul 2003 Actually, I'm wondering it the species taxonomy has been updated, the Berkeley site, http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/aw/lists/Bombinatoridae.shtml, is listing 8 species - it also has a nice brown orientalis, http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0703+0486. Distribution does look to reside in much warmer areas than here though. Looking at the range I suppose it was orientalis that was split to get the other species? Anyway, just a thought. Cheers, Lee. Lee Fairclough |
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 16 Jul 2003 As far as I know the 3 fairly new species B.fortinuptilais,B.microdeladigitora & B.lichuanensis are from the fairly restricted locations in the Mountains of China like B.maxima and were all originally described as such. B.orientalis has not been split.B.pachypus has been described as a subspecies of B.variegata although some workers think it is a seperate species is from southern Italy, Good series of articles by Mathias Lang on Bombina in BHS bulletins 26,27,and 28 1988-9 The photograph of the brown B.orientalis does look very much like the specimens seen in Hackney. British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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Olly Member Joined: 07 May 2004 No. of posts: 1 View other posts by Olly |
Posted: 07 May 2004 I think it's Bombina Orientalis cuz the markings look really like Orientalis. It's true that in the pet trade the Orientalis mostly have green color. But I own Orientalis at home and I have brown one's. One of them is actually almost black. The bright color of Orientalis dissapears slighty when they are captive bred. So I think the brown ones are the result of captive bred after captive bred..... I'm sorry about my English but I'm from Belgium so... Grtz Olly |
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chabbu Member Joined: 24 May 2004 No. of posts: 2 View other posts by chabbu |
Posted: 24 May 2004 Hi Everybody Your toad is definitely from the orientalis complex, either the Russian golden form or the brown phase of the Korean/Chinese form. I say "complex" because I believe that orientalis is in need of revision, and there is probably at least two subspecies (or even species) there. The Russian golden form is smaller, stockier, and seems to prefer cooler temperatures than the Korean. I also believe they are calmer and maybe a bit more terrestrial. While on the subject of Bombina taxonomic trivia, not only has pachypus been split off from variegata, but scabra and kolombatovici look to be next. And of the Giant species (which are going to be moved to their own genus sooner or later), lichuanensis is probably invalid. Hope all this helps. Chad Chad M Fordham Founder, The X Frogs Group The Archaeobatrachian Specialist's Resource |
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chabbu Member Joined: 24 May 2004 No. of posts: 2 View other posts by chabbu |
Posted: 24 May 2004 Hi Me again. I just realised that you have pics of 2 different toads there so I took a closer look. While the top one still looks like orientalis to me, the other one could be variegata, a variegata/orientalis hybrid, or an unusually yellow-ventered orientalis. Chad Chad M Fordham Founder, The X Frogs Group The Archaeobatrachian Specialist's Resource |
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Paul Member Joined: 27 May 2004 No. of posts: 13 View other posts by Paul |
Posted: 27 May 2004 I believe what might of happened is they have been pet's which have been released, this is extremely bad, they are not native to Britain and could really damage the eco-system of your pond, my advise is to take them to a local pet shop or basically kill them, there not good for your pond, alternatly you could try and raise them in a tank, if you want any info or help on this then just email me: pauljc_44@msn.com - P.S. they wont survive the winter |
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090 View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 27 May 2004 Paul, orientalis can survive the winter in the UK and I'm conviced this pair had done so. They have an extensive natural range which includes cooler climes. The pair originally mentioned are currently living safely and securely in my hall, along with a green toad from the same garden (obviously not in the same vivarium). Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
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Donny Senior Member Joined: 11 May 2004 No. of posts: 53 View other posts by Donny |
Posted: 28 May 2004 Oriental Fire Bellied Toads are found in Korea, North Eastern Russia and North East China...that's Siberian winters we're talking about...I am guessing British winters are fairly mild in comparison! |
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ROLYTOAD Member Joined: 29 Mar 2005 No. of posts: 1 View other posts by ROLYTOAD |
Posted: 29 Mar 2005 I noticed some mention of wild bombina. There is a european fire bellied toad which is indistinguishable from the oriental to me as I have seen brown, olive, green and black variations of these. Whilst not native to the U.K. I spotted them in Ladywell park in london near the river Ravensbourne many years ago and kept them as pets. Also vis a vis brown fire bellies. I have had brown and green and can tell you that individual toads can change their colouration as it has happened to mine occaisionally, although brown ones do stay fairly dark olive when they change. How I normally tell europeans appart is by listening to their calls.Europeans that I have kept definitely said "mum". Orientals that I have kept had a less clearly consonant start and ending to their note. A sort of honking note. Below are some pictures of various fire bellies, bare in mind that size and shape vary from toad to toad and are often subject to when they last ate.
European
Yellow belly
Orientalis Rolytoad "I ain't croaked yet" |
- Fire-bellied toad? |
