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RAUK - Archived Forum - Natrix tessallata

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Natrix tessallata:

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Danny13
Senior Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
No. of posts: 52


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Posted: 31 Oct 2004

Was there at anytime a population of Natrix tessallata in or around Holme-upon-Spalding-Moor?

If so, why was this species allowed to die out in England. Because Britain has such an incredibly small diversity of reptiles, why wasnt the species protected and why are we not trying to introduce it to England again?


David Bird
Forum Specialist
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 515


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Posted: 31 Oct 2004
I have seen this reported but have never been able to see the original reference so am not certain if it is true. I did once ask someone who had a remark in one of his papers and his reference is often referred to but he denied having seen them himself. If I remember correctly the earliest reference seems to be the start of the story is a naturalists magazine published in Doncaster.

It is against the wildlife and coutryside act to release non native species in this country .
Natrix tesselata has never occured in this country even in the fossil record so there is not even an excuse that it once occured here that there may be for the Aesculapian Snake Zamenis longissimus
British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker.
Wolfgang Wuster
Senior Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
No. of posts: 326


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Posted: 01 Nov 2004
[QUOTE=David Bird]
Natrix tesselata has never occured in this country even in the fossil record so there is not even an excuse that it once occured here that there may be for the Aesculapian Snake Zamenis longissimus[/QUOTE]

That would be a pretty feeble excuse for the Aesculapian snake as well. The fossils date back to the middle Pleistocene. At that time, we also had lions, elephants, hippos, hyaenas and Christ knows what else. I think it would be difficult to make a case for reintroducing all these as being part of the British fauna, appealing though the prospect might be to some of us... ;-)

Cheers,

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Wüster
School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor
http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/
-LAF
Senior Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2003
No. of posts: 317


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Posted: 01 Nov 2004
A bit off topic but does anyone know the reasoning for the reassignment of the aesculapian snake from Elaphe to Zamensis, I'd have thought the ausculapian snake was easily the most likely candidate for the genus 'type' specimen. What's happened to the other european "Elaphe"?

Regards, Lee.
Lee Fairclough
David Bird
Forum Specialist
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 515


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Posted: 02 Nov 2004
Lee, I have put the synonomy of the Aesulapian Snake below. As you can see the name Elaphe longissima was not used until quite late in the nomenclature of the species. Zamenis is an old name that was used for a lot of species of Coluber in the 1800's

Synonomy
1768 Natrix longissima Laurenti , Synops. Rept.:74 - Terra typica restricta (Mertens & M³ller 1928)         Vienna
1789 Coluber flavescens        Gmelin, Linn.Syst.Nat., Ed 13, 1 : 1115 Terra typica: Tyrol
1798 Coluber asclepiadeus     Donndoorff , Zool.Beytr., 3 205 Terra typica: DauphinÚ Fr.
1798 Coluber leprosus            Donndoorff , Zool.Beytr., 3 208 Terra typica: Upper Austria
1798 Coluber pannonicus        Donndoorff , Zool.Beytr., 3 208 Terra typica: Upper Austria
1820 Natrix scopolii           Merrem,     Tent.Syst.Amph.:104 Terra typica: S.Germany
1831 Coluber fugax           Eichwald     Zool.spec.Ross.Polon.,3:174 Terra typica: Colchis
1853 Zamenis aesculapii var. nigra   Fitzinger (nomen nudum) Sber.Akad.Wiss.Wien,math.-nat. Cl. 10. 657   Ohne Fundort
1926 Elaphe longissima longissima Giesler, Bl.Aqu.u.Terr.-kunde, stuttgart 37:110
2002 Zamenis longissimus       Utiger,U.,Helfenberger,N., Schõtti,B., Schmidt,C. Ruf,M. & Ziswiler,V
                     Russ. J. Herp. 9 (2): 105-124.


Will try to put the new names for Elaphe and Coluber in later.

British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker.
David Bird
Forum Specialist
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 515


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Posted: 02 Nov 2004
Lee

Hemorrhois     algirus     
Dolichoplus     caspius     
Platyceps     collaris      
Dolichoplus cypriensis
Hierophis     gemonensis     
Dolichoplus     gyarosensis     
Hierophis     hippocrepis     hippocrepis
Hierophis     hippocrepis     nigrescens
Dolichoplus     jugularis     jugularis
Platyceps     najadum     albotemporalis
Platyceps     najadum     dahlii
Platyceps     najadum     kalymnensis
Hemorrhois     nummifer     
Hemorrhois     ravergieri     ravergieri
Dolichoplus     schmidti     
Hierophis     viridiflavus     carbonarius
Hemorrhois     ventromaculatus     


were formerly Coluber

Dolichoplus has been recently suggested by Nagy,Lawson,Joger & Wink 2004 J.Syst.Evol.Res. 42 223-33   for many species that were in Hierophis


Elaphe     dione     
Zamensis     hohenackeri     hohenackeri
Zamensis     hohenackeri     taurica
Zamensis     lineatus     
Zamensis     longissima     longissima
Elaphe     quatuorlineata     quatuorlineata
Elaphe     quatuorlineata     muenteri
Elaphe     quatuorlineata     scyrensis
Elaphe     sauromates     
Rhinechis     scalaris     
Zamensis     situla     


were formerly all Elaphe


Most of this division has been due to a more thorough understanding of the phylogeny of the taxa using mitochondrial DNA.

I expect Wolfgang will tell us more

David
British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker.
Wolfgang Wuster
Senior Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
No. of posts: 326


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Posted: 02 Nov 2004
The genus Elaphe was split due to a DNA phylogeny study by Utiger et al. (let me know if you want a PDF of the paper). The fact that Elaphe was hopelessly paraphyletic was no state secret, it just took someone to actually get down to doing the work.

The name of a genus sticks with whatever the type species of the genus is, irrespective of whether that is a prominent memebr of the genus. In this case, the type species of the genus Elaphe is the taxon sauromates, so the name Elaphe goes wherever sauromates and its near relatives (which include E. quatuorlineata) go. Since the Aesculapian snake is not closely related to that group, another available generic name had to be found for it.

The type species is the species for which the genus was first described - this is a matter of nomenclatural priority, nothing else.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Wüster
School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor
http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/
Jeroen
Senior Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
No. of posts: 121


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Posted: 03 Nov 2004

@ David's post of 02 November 2004 at 5:31pm:

Zamensis should be Zamenis; Zamensis longissima => Zamenis longissimus

Dolichoplus should be Dolichophis

situla does not become situlus because it is a noun.

Jeroen.


Jeroen Speybroeck
http://www.hylawerkgroep.be/jeroen/
Jeroen
Senior Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
No. of posts: 121


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Posted: 03 Nov 2004

BTW, to continue splitting hairs: the species which was (is) the initial subject of this thread is correctly written as Natrix tessellata.

Jeroen.

 


Jeroen Speybroeck
http://www.hylawerkgroep.be/jeroen/
David Bird
Forum Specialist
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 515


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Posted: 03 Nov 2004
Cheers for that correction Jeroen. I do seem to have a mental block on Zamenisand just always want to put Zamensis. I need to get some earlier nights or a new pair of glasses for the Dolichophiswhich I misread so must change my list now in both cases.

Cheers David
British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker.
Peter Sutton
Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
No. of posts: 22


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Posted: 04 Sep 2006

For interest, there are still remnants of a Natrix tesselata population at the Beam Brook ponds in Newdigate, i.e. what appear to be hybrids. For that matter, there are an array of variously marked snakes including those which have the characteristic dorsal stripes of Natrix natrix persa. The site is still as interesting as it ever was, and although the Wall Lizard, Fire Salamander, Marbled Newt and European Tree Frog colonies appear to have been lost (all but the Fire Salamander, which was regularly found for many years, were short-lived populations from accounts by the former proprietor of the site...and the tree frog population that resided in reeds at the front of the site has, as far as I am aware, not been recognised in any literature), the Alpine Newts, Italian Crested Newts, Pool and Edible Frogs are all still going strong. 

Peter Sutton


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