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Natrix tessallata: |
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Danny13 Senior Member Joined: 03 Oct 2004 No. of posts: 52  View other posts by Danny13 |
Posted: 31 Oct 2004 Was there at anytime a population of Natrix tessallata in or around Holme-upon-Spalding-Moor? If so, why was this species allowed to die out in England. Because Britain has such an incredibly small diversity of reptiles, why wasnt the species protected and why are we not trying to introduce it to England again? |
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 31 Oct 2004 I have seen this reported but have never been able to see the original reference so am not certain if it is true. I did once ask someone who had a remark in one of his papers and his reference is often referred to but he denied having seen them himself. If I remember correctly the earliest reference seems to be the start of the story is a naturalists magazine published in Doncaster. It is against the wildlife and coutryside act to release non native species in this country . Natrix tesselata has never occured in this country even in the fossil record so there is not even an excuse that it once occured here that there may be for the Aesculapian Snake Zamenis longissimus British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster |
Posted: 01 Nov 2004 [QUOTE=David Bird] Natrix tesselata has never occured in this country even in the fossil record so there is not even an excuse that it once occured here that there may be for the Aesculapian Snake Zamenis longissimus[/QUOTE] That would be a pretty feeble excuse for the Aesculapian snake as well. The fossils date back to the middle Pleistocene. At that time, we also had lions, elephants, hippos, hyaenas and Christ knows what else. I think it would be difficult to make a case for reintroducing all these as being part of the British fauna, appealing though the prospect might be to some of us... ;-) Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang Wüster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/ |
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-LAF Senior Member Joined: 03 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 317 View other posts by -LAF |
Posted: 01 Nov 2004 A bit off topic but does anyone know the reasoning for the reassignment of the aesculapian snake from Elaphe to Zamensis, I'd have thought the ausculapian snake was easily the most likely candidate for the genus 'type' specimen. What's happened to the other european "Elaphe"? Regards, Lee. Lee Fairclough |
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 02 Nov 2004 Lee, I have put the synonomy of the Aesulapian Snake below. As you can see the name Elaphe longissima was not used until quite late in the nomenclature of the species. Zamenis is an old name that was used for a lot of species of Coluber in the 1800's Synonomy 1768 Natrix longissima Laurenti , Synops. Rept.:74 - Terra typica restricta (Mertens & M³ller 1928) Vienna 1789 Coluber flavescens Gmelin, Linn.Syst.Nat., Ed 13, 1 : 1115 Terra typica: Tyrol 1798 Coluber asclepiadeus Donndoorff , Zool.Beytr., 3 205 Terra typica: DauphinÚ Fr. 1798 Coluber leprosus Donndoorff , Zool.Beytr., 3 208 Terra typica: Upper Austria 1798 Coluber pannonicus Donndoorff , Zool.Beytr., 3 208 Terra typica: Upper Austria 1820 Natrix scopolii Merrem, Tent.Syst.Amph.:104 Terra typica: S.Germany 1831 Coluber fugax Eichwald Zool.spec.Ross.Polon.,3:174 Terra typica: Colchis 1853 Zamenis aesculapii var. nigra Fitzinger (nomen nudum) Sber.Akad.Wiss.Wien,math.-nat. Cl. 10. 657 Ohne Fundort 1926 Elaphe longissima longissima Giesler, Bl.Aqu.u.Terr.-kunde, stuttgart 37:110 2002 Zamenis longissimus Utiger,U.,Helfenberger,N., Schõtti,B., Schmidt,C. Ruf,M. & Ziswiler,V Russ. J. Herp. 9 (2): 105-124. Will try to put the new names for Elaphe and Coluber in later. British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 02 Nov 2004 Lee Hemorrhois algirus Dolichoplus caspius Platyceps collaris Dolichoplus cypriensis Hierophis gemonensis Dolichoplus gyarosensis Hierophis hippocrepis hippocrepis Hierophis hippocrepis nigrescens Dolichoplus jugularis jugularis Platyceps najadum albotemporalis Platyceps najadum dahlii Platyceps najadum kalymnensis Hemorrhois nummifer Hemorrhois ravergieri ravergieri Dolichoplus schmidti Hierophis viridiflavus carbonarius Hemorrhois ventromaculatus were formerly Coluber Dolichoplus has been recently suggested by Nagy,Lawson,Joger & Wink 2004 J.Syst.Evol.Res. 42 223-33 for many species that were in Hierophis Elaphe dione Zamensis hohenackeri hohenackeri Zamensis hohenackeri taurica Zamensis lineatus Zamensis longissima longissima Elaphe quatuorlineata quatuorlineata Elaphe quatuorlineata muenteri Elaphe quatuorlineata scyrensis Elaphe sauromates Rhinechis scalaris Zamensis situla were formerly all Elaphe Most of this division has been due to a more thorough understanding of the phylogeny of the taxa using mitochondrial DNA. I expect Wolfgang will tell us more David British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster |
Posted: 02 Nov 2004 The genus Elaphe was split due to a DNA phylogeny study by Utiger et al. (let me know if you want a PDF of the paper). The fact that Elaphe was hopelessly paraphyletic was no state secret, it just took someone to actually get down to doing the work. The name of a genus sticks with whatever the type species of the genus is, irrespective of whether that is a prominent memebr of the genus. In this case, the type species of the genus Elaphe is the taxon sauromates, so the name Elaphe goes wherever sauromates and its near relatives (which include E. quatuorlineata) go. Since the Aesculapian snake is not closely related to that group, another available generic name had to be found for it. The type species is the species for which the genus was first described - this is a matter of nomenclatural priority, nothing else. Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang Wüster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/ |
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Jeroen Senior Member Joined: 03 Nov 2004 No. of posts: 121  View other posts by Jeroen |
Posted: 03 Nov 2004 @ David's post of 02 November 2004 at 5:31pm: Zamensis should be Zamenis; Zamensis longissima => Zamenis longissimus Dolichoplus should be Dolichophis situla does not become situlus because it is a noun. Jeroen. Jeroen Speybroeck http://www.hylawerkgroep.be/jeroen/ |
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Jeroen Senior Member Joined: 03 Nov 2004 No. of posts: 121 View other posts by Jeroen |
Posted: 03 Nov 2004 BTW, to continue splitting hairs: the species which was (is) the initial subject of this thread is correctly written as Natrix tessellata. Jeroen.
Jeroen Speybroeck http://www.hylawerkgroep.be/jeroen/ |
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 03 Nov 2004 Cheers for that correction Jeroen. I do seem to have a mental block on Zamenisand just always want to put Zamensis. I need to get some earlier nights or a new pair of glasses for the Dolichophiswhich I misread so must change my list now in both cases. Cheers David British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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Peter Sutton Member Joined: 30 Aug 2006 No. of posts: 22 View other posts by Peter Sutton |
Posted: 04 Sep 2006 For interest, there are still remnants of a Natrix tesselata population at the Beam Brook ponds in Newdigate, i.e. what appear to be hybrids. For that matter, there are an array of variously marked snakes including those which have the characteristic dorsal stripes of Natrix natrix persa. The site is still as interesting as it ever was, and although the Wall Lizard, Fire Salamander, Marbled Newt and European Tree Frog colonies appear to have been lost (all but the Fire Salamander, which was regularly found for many years, were short-lived populations from accounts by the former proprietor of the site...and the tree frog population that resided in reeds at the front of the site has, as far as I am aware, not been recognised in any literature), the Alpine Newts, Italian Crested Newts, Pool and Edible Frogs are all still going strong. Peter Sutton |
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