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Newts under Tins: |
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Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181  View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 27 Feb 2006 Right, I'm the first to admit I'm not so good at IDing amphibians. One of the Tins locally has voles, mice and loads of newts at the moment, but no reptiles yet. Which of our Newts is this?...and what are the give-away ID discriminators visible in these pics?. I'm thinking they are palmate newts ?
Steve Langham - Chairman 
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
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*SNAKE* Senior Member Joined: 16 May 2004 No. of posts: 220  View other posts by *SNAKE* |
Posted: 27 Feb 2006 hi Steve hows things. i think your right female palmate looking at my book can be confused with female smooth newt and then best distinguished by unspotted throat , the female smooth newt has a spotted throat. hope I'm right don't want to give you false information hope someone can verify this paul PAUL SMITH |
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Caleb Forum Coordinator Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 448 View other posts by Caleb |
Posted: 28 Feb 2006 Yes, for adult females, the spotted throat is the usual way to distinguish them. Juveniles of both species have unspotted throats, though. Looks like this one sustained a nasty wound recently... |
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lucym Member Joined: 22 Feb 2006 No. of posts: 31  View other posts by lucym |
Posted: 28 Feb 2006 I would agree with this being a female Palmate, another usefull way of determining between Smooth/Palmate is (unfortunatly absent in pic) is the female Palmate often has a dark tip on the tail roughly 0.5mm upto 1.5mm. not present in female smoothys.  |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369  View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 28 Feb 2006
Another feature (which seems to to be absent in the last photo) are tubercules on the underside of the hind feet (as shown on this photo - sorry about the fuzzy pic)
Steve Prowse in Norfolk has been using this feature to identify the species in old historic sites - they are rarer than natterjacks in Norfolk! It is hard to say what species this female newt is - though I may go for palmate - though there is slight spotting on the chin and no tubercule on hind feet - but this may not be present during the terrestrial phase....... still not sure JC
Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090  View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 28 Feb 2006 There are some fairly clear piccies to help distinguish smooth and palmate newts by the throats at: http://www.kentarg.org/species_identification.htm
Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
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Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181 View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 28 Feb 2006 Heh, seems this wasn't as daft a post as I thought! I've found it very useful. Unfortunately, none of the photos I took clearly shows the tip of the tail, but they are very often under the same tin, so I'll look again tomorrow, and may have some luck. Cheers for the replies. Steve Langham - Chairman
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
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Mick Member Joined: 10 Jun 2005 No. of posts: 184 View other posts by Mick |
Posted: 28 Feb 2006 I sometimes find that feintly squarish, almost kind of slightly ridged back look a reasonably decent indicator of Palmates, especially males. Know wot i mean, 'Arry?  Also, i often find head tops of males are somewhat kind of speckly, & sometimes head top markings of females are somehow just a little 'different' lookin' from regular female Smoothies. Of course, Palmates are a bit smaller than Smoothies, as well, especially so heathland pond ones, in my own limited experiences of Palmates. I reckon i'd have slightly more trouble quickly telling the species apart on land though (plus as sub adults). As for throat spots'n'stuff, although i, too, would fully agree with all that's been said on that, let's also not forget - as many of us have just occasionally found with herp' species - that there's almost always the odd'n'awkward exception to the rules! |
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090 View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 01 Mar 2006 I often record female small newt species as just that 'female small newt'. I can usually tell them apart in the hand without too much difficulty, but as a lot of my recording is done at night with a torch with no capture there is little chance to ID the females accurately. I have seen recorders put down things like 20 female palmates, 20 female smooths, 0 male palmates and 40 males smooths after a torch survey of a pond.. what do you think, were they right about the female palmates? Maybe, it isn't impossible but is it likely.. I would only trust an observation like that if it was from a highly experienced recorder. I've also re-surveyed ponds where people were convinced the species present was palmate to only find hundreds of smooth newts. I agree with all Mick has said above and I think unless your 100% sure which species it is, for recording purposes, just leave it as 'female small newt' rather than record as palmate/smooth if your not sure. Once your have seen a few breeding males in the population during a torch survey it all becomes much easier to be sure which species your dealing with, or if in fact there is a mixture of both. Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
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Mark T Member Joined: 27 Apr 2006 No. of posts: 7  View other posts by Mark T |
Posted: 08 May 2006 its a female smooth newt, and judging by the way she is laying on her back for the camera, quite a tart!. The best way to distinguish is "Smooths are spotty, Palmates Pointy" i.e. smooths have a spotted underside to their throat palmates have a pointed 'filament' to the end of their tail. Smooths generally have more 'black' markings Palmate males have very distinctive black fringes around their back feet during breeding season. |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 08 May 2006
Slight problem with the id info as they will not work on female palmate newts - also smooths do not always have spotted throats and palmates do rarely have small spots - female palmate newts do not have the filament at the end of the tail and also do not have fringed black hind feet - I am leaning torwards a young smooth newt though
Jon
Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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Caleb Forum Coordinator Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 448 View other posts by Caleb |
Posted: 09 May 2006 LucyM's tip about the black tip of the tail in palmate females was a new one for me, I've been looking out for it this year. So far it's been 100% correct for me (though I've not seen that many smooths yet). I'd be interested to know about the origin of this test, if anyone knows, also about any background to the 'tubercule' test... |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 09 May 2006
Well the tubercule test was shown to me by John Buckley from HCT during a id workshop at Marwell Zoo several years ago. Steve Prowse in Norfolk has also be using this feature to id palmates in Norfolk with some success. Smooth newts do not have such a distinct tubercule as shown in the picture I posted of the palmate - I will definitely be looking for the black tip to female palmate tails - I have plenty of female smooth newts in my garden pond for comparison to the palmates I am surveying in Brentwood, Essex Regards
Jon Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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Caleb Forum Coordinator Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 448 View other posts by Caleb |
Posted: 09 May 2006 I was shown some palmates in the Brentwood area in the early 90s, I can probably find out where the site was if you're interested. There was some suggestion at the time that they might have been introduced from further south. |
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Pete Davey Member Joined: 09 May 2006 No. of posts: 1 View other posts by Pete Davey |
Posted: 09 May 2006 Palmates were very common all round Shenfield/Brentwood in the late eighties/early nineties. IIRC Caleb, it was you who suggested they were introduced? Since its on clay an introduction may be likely. The site you are thinking of was Shenfield Common but also near Shenfield school. Btw, they were seemed larger than the palmates you see in Hants/Dorset. |
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evilmike Senior Member Joined: 15 May 2004 No. of posts: 85 View other posts by evilmike |
Posted: 09 May 2006 i have 1000s i dont think iam too far off over estimating either of palmates in my garden pond, its got to the point you cant not see them, bad news for my froggie tadpoles many hungry mouths to feed
male palmates have filament in breeding condition and webbed back feet, females no filament as said before and do not have webbed feet for wrapping up xmas pressies and egg laying. pretty easy to sex them at least :) Mike Lister BSc hons Ecology & Env management |
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jopedder Senior Member Joined: 24 Jul 2003 No. of posts: 55 View other posts by jopedder |
Posted: 17 May 2006 I've often thought that throat spots can be misleading whet id'ing females as I've been led to believe that the belly and throat spots come on during the season and with maturity, so a pond may well have female smoothies that look like palmates from beneath, when based on spots alone. Female palmates sometimes have a very small tail filiment, which is reliable if present.
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- Newts under Tins |
