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RAUK - Archived Forum - Reptiles vs Rain

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Reptiles vs Rain:

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manofkent
Member
Joined: 23 Oct 2009
No. of posts: 5


View other posts by manofkent
Posted: 23 Oct 2009


Hands up who knows how do reptiles react to rain in
active season

Esp in cooler conditions (Autumn and Spring) when nights
are cooler?

Now we all know our reptile and amphibian
ecology/behaviour...don't we? hmm?:

Reptiles bask in certain temps
They bask at certain times of day
They bask at certain times of year
They hibernate at certain times
ect

blaa blaa, everything seems to be as per the famous Herps
Workers Manual...right?

But I question why I have been sent on a watching brief
at night, in 10 deg C, in mid October in a heavy storm.
A waste of client's money,,,over doing the "precautionary
approach" perchance?

Lets just have an ecology/biology answer/debate.
**** **** BSc MSc AIEEM
Ecologist
5yr exp
David Bird
Forum Specialist
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 515


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Posted: 23 Oct 2009
Do I really understand you correctly, that you have gone out at night in October in adverse weather conditions to look for Reptiles. Perhaps you or whoever has sent you out has not explained correctly to the client what conditons are required for sensible survey which is a mistake. I do see various consultancies that seem to like to make huge amounts of money by carrying out surveys at the wrong time of the year or in the wrong conditons, these will produce results that are detrimental to the herpetofauna that we are supposed to be protecting.
After over 40 years experience I do not think that the herpetological community know all the correct conditions for reptiles or amphibians to be visible or active, I am still learning and seeing animals when I do not expect them. On the BHS CAT (Smooth Snake) survey animals were seen out basking on heather clumps in gale force wind and rain as well as other adverse conditions so one can never be ceratin when some animals may be out and about.
I believe that there is a diurnal and thermoregulatory cycle that reptiles have to adhere to, within certain limits, to act normally and survive but there is also a behaviour cycle that includes feeding at different times of the year, the teritorrial and reproductive cycle that is also present and differs from site to site and population to population, sometimes just a matter of a few hundred metres away that causes animals to be active or visible and can be independent of the thermoregulatory cycle. This may give rise to anomalies as to when one sees the greatest or smallest number of animals out on any particular site.

British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker.
Iowarth
Admin Group
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
No. of posts: 222


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Posted: 23 Oct 2009
I really think David has summarised this extremely well. It is really completely impractical to carry out any sort of reptile assessment at this time of year, let alone in those conditions; a factor which some consultancies seem to ignore - I have even known one which carried out a reptile survey in November and consequently stated confidently that no reptiles were present. Now, there's a surprise!
As for the Herps Workers Manual it is good general guidance. The fact that one will occasionally find lizards or snakes "basking" in wind, rain etc doesn't alter the fact that this is exceptional behaviour!
And I have been watching reptiles and amphibians in the wild for many years (far more even than David - which makes me feel very old!) and I also am still learning. In fact, the more I learn the more aware I become of how little I know!
Chris

Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme
manofkent
Member
Joined: 23 Oct 2009
No. of posts: 5


View other posts by manofkent
Posted: 24 Oct 2009
This was not a survey.

This was a well meaning, precautionary watching
brief/destructive search works in an area which wouldn't
"normally/in text books or from experience" have SWs
(basking, feeding, hibernating in any large
numbers)...but we were there as there was the risk of 1
or 2 getting within the jaws of machinary...

I was hypothesising in my head, on site, in the pouring
rain and getting cold, that the conditions didn't look
massively conducive to reptile presence. In an absolute
sense I feel that rain in cooler conditions could create
conditions less favourable to reptiles. It certainly in
my view, wouldn't make for better or neutral conditions
based on a baseline day x.

So on those sites which are assessed by competent staff
as "low potential" for presence, might it be possible to
lower the risk of construction recklessly killing or
injuring reptiles by mitigating by weather. I'm sure
there are flaws to this idea, please feel free to comment
politely.

And please keep it anecdote free and assume the good in
consultants for now. (we know some are bad, but not
all!)






**** **** BSc MSc AIEEM
Ecologist
5yr exp
Paul Hudson
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Joined: 24 Sep 2004
No. of posts: 33


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Posted: 25 Oct 2009

What do You mean mitigating by weather? have You really got 5 years worth of experiance in these matters?

Paul Hudson


Paul Hudson
manofkent
Member
Joined: 23 Oct 2009
No. of posts: 5


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Posted: 25 Oct 2009
I admited before I posted that comment that there may be
some "flaws". And it seems you're right onto them. I
apologise, it's a bit wacky. It's just interesting to
explore ideas. And I'll put it to bed if it's too
outrageous.

Assuming everyone is happy to debate, I'll continue. How
do people feel about the following hypothesis:

"all things remaining the same, the chance of slow worms
being present on grassland will be reduced during periods
of heavy rain*."

I've deliberately not defined any terms for the purpose
of debate:

PS I'm not endorsing this view, but waiting on the debate
to take an informed view. I'm aware of the IEEM Code of
Practice, and would not recklessly go ahead with
something based on speculation. Its just good fun to
have the debate with clever people like yourselves.

Thank you so far for your comments so far, it's
appreciated.


**** **** BSc MSc AIEEM
Ecologist
5yr exp
Iowarth
Admin Group
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
No. of posts: 222


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Posted: 25 Oct 2009
Hi

I don't believe your hypothesis can stand if we are to take it's wording literally.
In general terms it might be reasonable to say ""all things remaining the same, the chance of reptiles being visible on grassland will be reduced during periods of heavy rain."
I have changed both 'slowworms' and 'present' on the following bases:-
i) the revised phraseology could be applied to all reptiles. and
ii) since slowworms tend towards a fossorial life style and are seldom visible in the open, heavy rain will have virtually zero impact on their presence, although some impact on their visibility. In the remaining species exactly the same applies - except that their visibility will be more greatly reduced.

Any more takers?

Chris

Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme
manofkent
Member
Joined: 23 Oct 2009
No. of posts: 5


View other posts by manofkent
Posted: 25 Oct 2009
That sounds reasonable. It's important that you've
picked up on being species specific. That will be good
for people viewing this in the future.

It also makes sense that slow worms will be less visible
during periods of rain, but do not necessarily depart the
area, rather hide/return to ground.

Without being arguementative, rather, continuing the
debating process. May I have your opinions on the
hypothesis when assuming that cracks/crevices/holes in
the ground are sparse.

I wonder whether slow worms might (on a survival basis)
depart open grassland in favour of sheltered ground off
site. Do we know enough about slow worm behaviour to say
for certain. Thank you for your patience.




**** **** BSc MSc AIEEM
Ecologist
5yr exp
Iowarth
Admin Group
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
No. of posts: 222


View other posts by Iowarth
Posted: 25 Oct 2009
Continuing the debating process, perhaps even the term "open grassland" covers too wide a habitat range. In the case of true rough grassland, even with a relatively low level of cracks/crevices/holes there is a plenitude of suitable refugia within grass tussocks - however open. My experience, including, various mitigation projects as well as study in the wild suggests that these, together with the more obvious candidates such as logs and stones are the more common refugia. Conversely, in an open area of relatively short, non-tussock forming grass, with an absence of other refugia I would expect few hiding places and as a consequence slowworms to be present in quantity only if conditions were appropriate for hunting and more suitable habitat was immediately adjacent. To that extent I believe your hypothesis might hold.
I would dearly love someone else to argue with either both of us though!

Chris

Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme
Jonathan
Senior Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2009
No. of posts: 68


View other posts by Jonathan
Posted: 25 Oct 2009

[QUOTE=manofkent]all things remaining the same, the chance of slow worms
being present on grassland will be reduced during periods
of heavy rain[/QUOTE]

The slow-worms are already present, what you need to define is their level of activity, very hard to do if they are making use of vole runs and subterranean access, which would in themselves be sheltered.  Would their position before, during or after rainful change?  Hunting ranges should increase post rainfall as their prey items are in the open and activity is heightened.


"England Expects"
calumma
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
No. of posts: 351


View other posts by calumma
Posted: 26 Oct 2009
As others have mentioned, detectability of a species is a critical issue that
can be very difficult to control for. Slow-worm home ranges are relatively
small (compared to snakes) and the animals are unlikely to move significant
distances. If survey work has revealed the presence of slow-worms in an
area of habitat, it is reasonable to assume that the animals will be present
regardless of local weather conditions.

That said, I have had sites where slow-worm encounter rates do display
seasonal variation across different habitat areas. However, I cannot say
whether that is due to fluctuations in occupancy or detectability (the latter
caused by local variations in activity). calumma40112.4263541667
Lee Brady
Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant

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Robert V
Senior Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
No. of posts: 717


View other posts by Robert V
Posted: 27 Oct 2009

Not sure about slow worms, but I can say that over the years of grass snake watching, without doubt the best conditions to see them is in light to medium drizzle on cloudy warm days with no wind.

As soon as a breeze picks up to visibly move surrounding veggy, Grassys are off.

But Adders don't mind the wind so much, as long as their sheltered spot by a log etc is not too exposed.

But surveying at night? I question the point of that.

R


RobV
herpetologic2
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
No. of posts: 1369


View other posts by herpetologic2
Posted: 28 Oct 2009
[QUOTE=manofkent]

Hands up who knows how do reptiles react to rain in
active season

Esp in cooler conditions (Autumn and Spring) when nights
are cooler?

Now we all know our reptile and amphibian
ecology/behaviour...don't we? hmm?:

Reptiles bask in certain temps
They bask at certain times of day
They bask at certain times of year
They hibernate at certain times
ect

blaa blaa, everything seems to be as per the famous Herps
Workers Manual...right?

But I question why I have been sent on a watching brief
at night, in 10 deg C, in mid October in a heavy storm.
A waste of client's money,,,over doing the "precautionary
approach" perchance?

Lets just have an ecology/biology answer/debate.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm now why would you be working at night? I suspect
that possibly this is a highways job?

I have been sent out on 'watching brief' type work mainly
on highway related jobs. This was mainly because of the
remote possibility of amphibians or reptiles being
present.
On highways various areas are ideal habitats such as
hedge banks, rough grassland and scrubby banks.

The reason that this work was at night is due largely to
the
limitations scheme - i.e. this work often is done
over night due to less traffic at that time. A road
closure if required would not disrupt the main flow of
traffic. I also tend to find that highway related work
does not take into account the seasonality of reptiles.

We all know that it is best to work on reptiles during
their active period. Lots of work though starts in the
late part of the year and in the case of highways or
railway works they do not delay works until the year
after and so the work is scheduled and the ecologists
then supervise the works to rescue any animals found

Of course the work is pointless in many cases and does
nothing for
reptile conservation.

And of course you need the several hundred metres of
reptile fencing for good measure - The money can be
better spent on more worth while measures but it is often
that the client does not want to deal with third parties
and opts for the more expensive but less valuable (in
conservation terms) course of action. Which means that
young consultants are sent out in all weather to provide
supervision.


Jherpetologic240114.4486921296
Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant -
visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife
manofkent
Member
Joined: 23 Oct 2009
No. of posts: 5


View other posts by manofkent
Posted: 28 Oct 2009
I think the comment that

"Slow-worm home ranges are relatively small (compared to
snakes) and the animals are unlikely to move significant
distances" ...is an important one to remember. Rain or
unfavourable conditions would not therefore be any reason
to let up on efforts to prevent killing/injury during
works (all things remaining the same).

I'm sure we all accept the note that such work like this
can seem generally "pointless" in terms of conservation.
But I'm sure a whole new thread could be set up on that.

If you're a consultant, I guess it's up to us all which
contracts we take, or don't.


**** **** BSc MSc AIEEM
Ecologist
5yr exp

- Reptiles vs Rain

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