RAUK - Archived Forum - SAND LIZARDS FOR EAST ANGLIA

I cant see why there cant be and add Smooth Snakes as well!

Hello Chaps,

yes rather a suprising lack of response.

Having spent bit of time on both the Heaths and Sand Dunes of East Anglia I was rather mystified at the lack of La's and Ca's.

But reading around the literature (and much paraphrasing);

English Natures "Pilot Study for Sand Lizard Recovery Programme" 1994, has no historical records for either heaths or sand dunes

Recognised historic distribution seems to follow the 6hrs/ day "bright sunshine" line (isohelos?!) linking southern and western Coasts (hence longevity of introduced population on Coll), Rather than temps.

No suggestion of using vast network of habitat as possible introduction sites after detailed research structure of dunes not considered appropriate (marram dense frontal ridge) and exposure to cold easterly winds. Though nothing stated for rejection of heathlands.

Steve.

PS I thought some authors might be members of this forum?

This distribution map shows records in Suffolk and Norfolk (which surprised me).

http://www.searchnbn.net/gridMap/gridMapLarge.

Sorry - that link doesn't work. One that does is here, message 4:

http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/forums/reptile-and-amphibi an-forums/20127-sand-lizard-scottish-borders.html

Curiouser and curiouser....

Suffolk records are from 1960 and 1930's, Norfolk 1930's and Thetford Forest/ Brecks area 1930 and 1920's (If you select Interactive Map on that NBN link you will see that dataset to which records refer is held by ARC nee HCT) Funny they dont appear in many other publications. I know NBN can include odd stand alone records but these have all been allocated to ARC (unless someone has better access privilage then me)

Though cross checking my "library" Shire Publications "Lizards of the British Isles" shows a record for Suffolk coast. But nothing in BeeBee and Griffiths.

The "Sand Lizard Pilot Study" does include reference to other (sometimes single) historical accounts and variously rejects or supports on varying merit. But nothing for East Anglia.

Obviously time to crank this up to a full blown cover up.....

Ref were old records considered unreliable?

It seems a bit variable, some rejected for lack of detail (plus use of terms like "green lizard" clouding the matter) some rejected for unsuitable habitat but mostly not made clear and some records accepted on what doesnt seem very suitable habitat (local to me in south Devon two heaths considered for '94 reintructions that seem a bit stoney). Though as I'm reading a book or a finished report rather than source data it perhaps not suprising that many details are missing.

The real story is that a dearth of historical records is pretty usual for herptiles as yer olden days naturalist weren't interested in them and many accounts of species were dismissed by contempory experts 'cause those species wernt supposed to occur...thus we almost certainly lost species prior to our knowledge of their existence.

Which does make it easy to imagine a population on East Anglian heaths lost before anyone recorded them. Thetford forest largely covers "the Brecks" a once huge tract of heath and naked shifting sands feared by all but the most intrepid there could well have suitable habitat on its fringes.

Steve

ps but just to keep stoking things up... Look at the JNCC website and search Sand Lizard, it mentions "recent re-introduction into Derbyshire"?! and shows an historical record map which includes all sorts of random locations (welsh borders, suffolk/norfolk coast again and  possibly chileterns)

Er yes sorry did rather drift off topic into "tales of the unexplained" my fault, I'm a bit over interested in funny inconsistancies in historical natural history.

Anyway to return to your point, I couldnt agree more that in the face of declining habitat availability we should consider all potential sites.

However I doubt "the authorities" would consider introductions of La into areas with no history of occurence, from an ecological stand point they would be in effect aliens (doesnt WCA include phrase along lines "..an area in which they are not normally resident"?).

S 

The reintroduction of wolves is probably impracticable, but I like the vision. Wild boar have reintroduced themselves; what's wrong with that? Great, I say.

I don't see the conflict between these animals and reptiles.

But, getting back to East Anglia and Sand Lizards, we should know more about those records and whether they could constitute evidence of previous populations, enough to justify reintroduction. We should also think about why those populations, if they did exist, died out. The habitat seems relatively undamaged, from what earlier posters have said. Could it be that these populations were always marginal and vulnerable because of colder summer temperatures (those east winds from the coast)? If (re)introduction were ever considered, that possibility would have to be studied first.

The wild boar do indeed root up the ground, but I know of no evidence that this has ever had a damaging effect on reptile populations. Heathland isn't boar habitat anyway - not enough cover and not enough nourishing roots.

Why are we in favour of reintroductions, anyway, and why shouldn't we introduce creatures to places where they haven't been recorded before? Are we attempting to restore the ecosystem to some previous condition? In your view, Ben, the new wild boar aren't authentic because they aren't pure-bred, and therefore they shouldn't be here. Am I understanding you right? But ecosystems aren't stable even when left alone by humans; they are constantly evolving and changing, due to all sorts of internal and external factors. An attempt to restore wildlife that was once in a particular place is an attempt to freeze the ecological process at a particular moment. There is no ecological principle that justifies this. What we are doing with such introductions is trying to create an ecosystem that gives us pleasure. That's why we like the idea of introducing Sand Lizards in East Anglia, and that's why I like the new wild boar. I don't think we should hide this motive behind notions of ecological authenticity.