Wall lizard distribution: |
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Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181 View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 18 Apr 2006 Here's my first stab at confirmed/possible? locations of Pm colonies here in the UK. I would welcome comments, corrections, confirmations etc. Ta. Steve Langham - Chairman Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
John Newton Senior Member Joined: 19 May 2005 No. of posts: 151 View other posts by John Newton |
Posted: 18 Apr 2006 Hi Steve The location of Shoreham (shown as near Orpington) should be on the coast at Shoreham-on-Sea. Within the London suburbs, Charles Snells colony at Kidbrooke is possibly still in fragmented existence, and the Portland populations have spread over most of the cliffs, east and west. The is at least one other Dorset population at Winspit quarry, as noted in yesterdays post. My memory is rather vague now, but I also seem to remember there being a small colony on one of he railway viaducts in SW London, plus a couple of others in 'inland' Hampshire. John Newton South Yorkshire ARG |
herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 18 Apr 2006
It may be worth looking at this article - Quayle A & Noble M (2000) The Wall Lizard in England British Wildlife Vol12 No 2 December The Shoreham population is on the coast in Sussex - I think are still there - J Baker photographed their habitat - garden walls etc London - Kidbrooke, Shropshire - Ludlow & South West Hampshire (New Forest) are all mentioned. Regards
Jon Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181 View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 18 Apr 2006 Cheers guys. I'd completely forgotten about Kidbrooke! Stab 2 below. Steve Langham - Chairman Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 18 Apr 2006
Fantastic - Perhaps we could try and visit these sites to get some counts - Wall Lizard Monitoring Project or something? I am heading to Isle of Wight and Portland in the next few weeks so I can get a few counts - standard transects etc Regards Jon Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181 View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 18 Apr 2006 Jon, It would also be interesting to see how far each colony has spread. Plenty about Ventnor, but I had a good search for them at Shanklin (E) and at St. Catherine's Point (SW), with no sign at all. I wonder how long 'til some colonies link up? I'm certainly interested in confirming absence/presence at some of the questionable sites, and I bet we've missed some populations. Steve Langham - Chairman Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
Suzi Senior Member Joined: 06 Apr 2005 No. of posts: 860 View other posts by Suzi |
Posted: 18 Apr 2006 Whereabouts are they at Totnes? I'm sometimes in the area and could check them out. Suz |
Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181 View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 18 Apr 2006 Suz, The only reference I have for Totnes is: "In 1954, Lord Chaplin released 15 into the garden of his estate near Tornes, Devon; and by 1976, these had been known to have multiplied to around 100." also: "In 1937, 300 were released in the grounds of Paignton Zoo, and these were still in existance in the late 1960s." I can't find a Tornes in Devon, but I have traced a Viscount Chaplin who was "a leading member of the horticultural society" (so not beyond character to add some lizards to set off his nice new plants). I know he planted gardens between Dartmouth and Totnes (Blackawton area), So I'm currently assuming Tornes = Totnes. I have one reference to Tornes being the last bridge on the river Dart, which kinda fits too. I'd be grateful if people who know the area better can cast some further light. Steve Langham - Chairman Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
Suzi Senior Member Joined: 06 Apr 2005 No. of posts: 860 View other posts by Suzi |
Posted: 19 Apr 2006 Steve, Thanks for the info I'll get on the case and do a bit of research before setting forth. Suz |
arvensis Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2006 No. of posts: 445 View other posts by arvensis |
Posted: 19 Apr 2006 It would be interesting to compare the weather data at the coastal sites to see if there's any pattern. Good work on the distribution pattern Steve. Now all that remains is work to see if the ones with the question marks ever or still do exist. Now I've had my car keys sorted out i'm mobile again, I'll take a trip down to look at one of the Dorset colonies with camera and GPS- I think it'll be a field test for my new lens when it arrives. I'll be keeping a eye out for the Green Lizard too. Hopefully they won't scuttle away from me!! Mark Hampshire Amphibian and Reptile Group. |
David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 19 Apr 2006 The Bournemouth distribution is two different populations, one at Boscombe to the east of the Pier based around the zig zag and one that started at the zig zag close to Flaghead chine on Canford Cliffs but now has been spread along the cliffs as far as the car park at Bransome Dean chine.These look like the Italian population. There is a colony that is derived from specimens from N.W.France just off the Wellington by-pass in Somerset. Winspit Quarry colony does exist still and is probably less than 12 years old. Some individuals have been reported at Durlston Castle by Tony Phelps which is about 4 miles east and not time for natural colonisation. The climate on the coast has very little to do with the distribution as most of the recent ones in Dorset are introductions made by the reasonable numbers of hatchlings being released unlike in the past when adults were released which obviously was not as successful. I would like to see some initiative to remove these aliens from the Bournemouth and Poole cliffs as they have caused a decrease in the numbers of Sand Lizards that I now see in the areas where the Wall Lizard is now present. I think that this may be too late with the fecundity shown by Wall Lizards and finding and noosing of all adults on the cliffs would be almost impossible with the numbers I have seen in the past on just a few walks and climbs along the whole length of the cliffs. BHS and HCT did have a day surveying the Ventnor colony about 9 years ago and found it was just in the west part of the town from where the old cinema was to the large carpark at the bottom of the cliffs and the surrounding properties. We did not find them in the Botanic gardens or anywhere close but have heard that they are now there and that a special wall had been built so this was probably another very recent introduction. David British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 19 Apr 2006
Is there any further steps which could be taken to tip the balance in favour of the sand lizards? how good is the habitat for the sand lizards or do they occupy the same type of habitat on the cliffs? Jon Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 19 Apr 2006
What evidence is there that it is the Wall lizards that have caused the decline in Sand Lizards? apart from one species is getting less (Sand) while the other is increasing (Wall) - As you say David the taks of removing the aliens would be futile when all that may be needed is some type of specific management for sand lizards. Jon Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 19 Apr 2006 As far as I can see there is nothing that can be done habitat wise. I did clear a lot of vegetation in one area to produce larger areas of sand and remove the logs, stumps and burnt gorse that the Wall Lizards were using but found that the Wall lizards were present in the next year in large numbers and were using burrows in the sand where large pebbles had fallen out of the cliff sand. Management to keep the gorse down and the removal of Sycamore , Holm oak and other aliens had been going on for several years previous to the introduction of the Wall Lizards this had enabled Sand Lizards to be seen in the areas of clearance in some numbers. The same type of management was continued after the Wall Lizards were first seen and the Wall lizards quickly replaced the Sand Lizards in the areas where I had always seen Sand Lizards but have not been able to find them since. I cannot see that any other conclusion can be reached with these observations. David British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181 View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 20 Apr 2006 Question: Are Wall lizards territorial ? I regularly see Lvs (in small numbers) in close proximity to Pm, but then Lv wouldn't need access to (possibly defended?) egg-laying sites. Pm appear far more agile, I have seen an Lv and a Pm chasing the same spider, and the Pm won hands-down, was faster and turned far more quickly even though the Lv had a small head-start. But their coincident distribution would suggest this is not a significant factor for species exclusion? Steve Langham - Chairman Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 22 Apr 2006
Hi Steve Its the La which people would be worried about like David says it appears that the decrease in sand lizards on Boscombe cliffs may be the result of the increase in Wall Lizard numbers. But like a lot of wildlife issues relating to introduced animals - e.g. Marsh Frog and apparent ill effects on Common Frogs - this has still to be proven discounting all the other reasons why sand lizards are declining and that wall lizards are increasing - the two may be unrelated (possibly) Regards Jon Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181 View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 22 Apr 2006 Aye Jon, I was being too subtle I think (unusual for me :P). I should phrase my thoughts more explicitly! I was exploring possible mechanisms, as I regularly see Lv and Pm co-habiting, but have not seen La and Pm together (personally), it led me to a potential hypothesis that competition for egg-laying sites might be a factor, as Lv obviously doesn't compete in this manner. Thoughts ? Steve Langham - Chairman Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
Iowarth Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 222 View other posts by Iowarth |
Posted: 22 Apr 2006 I have on occasion seen Pm and La together on the Bournemouth cliffs but have seen no interaction to give a clue as to the possibility that the apparent reduction in La numbers is due to the Pm. I am not sure that egg-laying sites would be the answer as Pm is far mroe catholic in its choice of egg-laying sites - it likes sand but will happily use other features - under stones for example. Many years ago I had both species sharing a large outdoor vivaria and they co-existed perfectly well even though both can be very agressive. Three factors are clear - Pm is far more adaptable to habitat change/sub optimal habitat, it is faster more efficient predator and it will produce multiple egg clutches (three or four) against La's one or two with quicker incubation - thus higher chance of alter clutches hatching. Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme |
Vicar Senior Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 No. of posts: 1181 View other posts by Vicar |
Posted: 24 Apr 2006 Most recent version of the distribution. If anybody could confirm that any of the 'questionable' colonies still exist, and email or private message me with sighting co-ordinates, I'll update the plot. Cheers !
Steve Langham - Chairman Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group (SARG). |
chris mac Member Joined: 03 Jun 2005 No. of posts: 7 View other posts by chris mac |
Posted: 26 Nov 2006 Hi, I live pretty close to Burford......would you like me to do some checking on the population(?) sown on your map? If so, can you give me a steer as to where to start looking next Spring? I can post my emaiul address if you wish to keep this under wraps. Best Chris Mac |
- Wall lizard distribution |