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Xanthina or Lebetina: |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416  View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 16 Dec 2006 We often hear of the most venomous snakes in the world but, which species holds the crown in Europe, lebetina or Xanthina? Cheers, Al O-> O+> |
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armata Forum Specialist Joined: 05 Apr 2006 No. of posts: 928 View other posts by armata |
Posted: 16 Dec 2006 Tis a relative question Al; both those snake are Eurasian really - and the Milos viper don't cause no probs. Although Cyprus is a popular holiday destinantion; and if you want to mess with M.lebetina, then, yes they are very dangerous - but only to you! If you want to think about most dangerous in the rest if Europe - I would put Vipera ammodytes at the top of the list, then V.aspis, and if you live in Spain V.latastei. (cork gatherers in the south get nailed quite often by the last mentioned.) In short depends where you live; quite a few people get bitten by V/aspis hugyi in the south of Italy; and also V.aspis francisceredi in the rest of Italy. I was in one village, Manziana; and they had 15 cases of snake bite in one year, one fatal. 'I get my kicks on Route 62' |
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armata Forum Specialist Joined: 05 Apr 2006 No. of posts: 928 View other posts by armata |
Posted: 16 Dec 2006 Just to add; Macrovipera lebetina obtusa has been known to kill camels!! This honour is also shared by Daboia mauritanica of N.Africa. (Don't like camels; they are in the same category as the ostrich - bane of my life  )
I get quite p****ed when people describeas 'most dangerous in the world' cos' it don't mean anything.Tis alright Al not having a dig at you. Traditionally the saw-scale viper was most often quoted for this honour - fair enough when there were only two species described - now you can choose between 8-12. If you are living in Cost Rica - you would worry about the tercepelio Bothrops asper - if you are living in Hirojima you would worry about the Habu Protobothrops flavoviridis - If you are living in India THEN you could worry about Echis carinatus plus Daboia russelii, plus Naja naja, plus bungarus blah blah. And if you live in Oudtshoorn SA you just gotta love those puffies and capes; plus boomslang, coral snakes; we even have harmless stuff here; such as my favourite - the mole snake - but they still hurt!!
'I get my kicks on Route 62' |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 16 Dec 2006 Ello Tony, Thanks for the info, a great read. I also get pi**** at the most venomous question but have often pondered over lebetina and xanthina. In over ten visits to Turkey I have yet to meet a Turk that has encountered the ottoman, most just look puzzled when I show a picture and ask,"have you seen one of these"?
May sound silly but , I love to search and find xanthina in its natural habititat then spend as long as pos' just taking in the moment . Look around, take in the rocky mountainside and appreciate the moment that I was honoured enough to meet the snake I consider the most beautiful European/Eurasian viper as he basks where he belongs. Ah can't wait untill next June 
Now, with regards to the saw scale , back in the 90's i must have had a pair of oddballs as both of mine were very mellow , the pair of c.d.durissus i kept were another matter 
By the way, we're coming to SA in 2008 for my wife's 40th, would you be able to spare some time to show me a few good spots? O-> O+> |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 16 Dec 2006 one more q if you don't mind. Are neo m.xanthina born a different colour to adults like berus, or do they keep the same colouration as at birth? thanks, Al O-> O+> |
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armata Forum Specialist Joined: 05 Apr 2006 No. of posts: 928 View other posts by armata |
Posted: 16 Dec 2006 Pattern on youngsters tends to be more brownish; thats the ones that I have bred in the past. BTW I still term them as Vipera xanthina I do miss the Pelias berus though  'I get my kicks on Route 62' |
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axel Member Joined: 16 May 2006 No. of posts: 31  View other posts by axel |
Posted: 16 Dec 2006 [QUOTE=armata] But Vipera berus has a far more toxic venom and similar yeild to V. ammodytes - I would therefore consider it more dangerous than ammodytes |
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armata Forum Specialist Joined: 05 Apr 2006 No. of posts: 928 View other posts by armata |
Posted: 17 Dec 2006 Axel, Would be very interested to see where you obtained your yield comparison. Larger venom glands, longer fangs (app 1cm) & venom injected deeper is what makes V.ammodytes more dangerous then V.berus. Also, more people have died from bites from ammodytes. Also the large venom glands of V.aspis francisceredi alter the shape of the head noticebaly compared to other subspp of aspis. Even, so I have never underated V.berus. 'I get my kicks on Route 62' |
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djp_phillips Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2006 No. of posts: 180 View other posts by djp_phillips |
Posted: 27 Dec 2006 I don't consider lebetina as a European snake as I don't consider Turkey being part of Europe. My classification based on venom power: 1) Vipera ammodytes 2) Montivipera xanthina 3) Macrovipera schweizeri 4) Vipera aspis 5) Vipera latastei 6) Vipera seoanei 7) Vipera berus 8) Vipera ursinii Reptiles & Amphibians of France: www.herpfrance.com European Field Herping Community: www.euroherp.com |
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Jeroen Senior Member Joined: 03 Nov 2004 No. of posts: 121  View other posts by Jeroen |
Posted: 27 Dec 2006 Didn't we already have this discussion a while back? Based on what I have been hearing and reading, I would regard them as follows => 1) Montivipera xanthina = Macrovipera schweizeri The main thing remains that this is all very relative and this ranking is more like a game to us, rather than reliable scientific fact. Jeroen Speybroeck http://www.hylawerkgroep.be/jeroen/ |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 28 Dec 2006 [QUOTE=Jeroen] The main thing remains that this is all very relative and this ranking is more like a game to us, rather than reliable sciencetific fact. [/QUOTE]Preeezactly Jeroen 
Thanks for your thoughts folks Al O-> O+> |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 02 Jan 2007 Another q, I'm not into captive hybridisation but, do any European vipers hybridise naturally where they meet? Cheers, Al O-> O+> |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 02 Jan 2007 Something that has always interested me is the venom composition in hybrids. I asked the same question some time ago on KS , if for example we have a western diamond back that mates with a mojave what are the results in the hybrid young? Do some neos have the same venom composition of the westy, and some the mojave, or do the young have a completely different venom from both parents? Hey it's winter, got to keep the head buzzing
no on second thoughts  O-> O+> |
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armata Forum Specialist Joined: 05 Apr 2006 No. of posts: 928 View other posts by armata |
Posted: 02 Jan 2007 Delving into the unknown here Al. If you are a BHS member you have probably seen the piece in the bulletin re intermediate forms of V.aspis.latastei in N.Spain. Wolfgang has some photos of V.berus bosniensis/ammodytes hybrids. Bitis gabonica/arietans hybrids are known from KZN in South Africa. If your talking C.scutulatus/atrox hybrids, you mean captives? as I don't think they are syntopic in the wild. The Mojave is said to have the most toxic venom of the N.American rattlers, but the western DB delivers larger doses of course (sometimes). The strangest snake of all was back in the 70s when a little snake was found at Ambersham. It had the body shape and head shape of berus but the smooth scales of a smooth snake; and get this - no fangs! Keith Corbett and I named it the 'Smadder' The specimen died and went somewhere via Keith; but have not heard anything since. Although I think Beebee & Griffiths mention it in their book. 'I get my kicks on Route 62' |
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mikebrown Senior Member Joined: 30 Jun 2005 No. of posts: 95  View other posts by mikebrown |
Posted: 02 Jan 2007 Hi Tony, Do you mean Amersham, Bucks, which would surely be outside of Smooth Snake country? Cheers, Mike Mike Brown Merseyside ARG |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 03 Jan 2007 Ah interesting, still little known. Were there no pictures taken of the smadder Tony? Sounds like a fascinating find. Would also love to see those V.berus bosniensis/ammodytes hybrid pics of Wolfgangs
Another thing that I find interesting is that in wild hybrids many of the young are apparently born infertile and unable to reproduce. However captive bred hybrids are quite often just the opposite and go on to make F2 youngsters. Do you know if the gabonica/arietans young are able to reproduce? I suppose in the instance of a bite from a large bitis hybrid the treatment would be standard because the antivenin is polyvalent for all three large bitis? Interesting stuff, Cheers, Al O-> O+> |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 03 Jan 2007 Speaking of Hybrids check out this link, an apparently natural hybridisation of b.gabonica/nasicornis. Absolutely beautiful to look at b gabonica/nasicornis O-> O+> |
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Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster |
Posted: 03 Jan 2007 Hi Alan, Here are two photos of the hybrid, maintained at Zoran Tadic's lab at the University of Zagreb: 
Note the enlarged scales on the top of the head of the specimen, testifying to its berus ancestry. A very fast and agile snake, by the way, we had quite a job controlling it for photography.
Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang Wüster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/ |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 03 Jan 2007 Wow! Melanistic too Thanks for sharing those Wolfgang, great pictures.
So it's maintained at the lab but, is it a natural wild hybrid, and has anyone looked at its venom composition? Cheers, Alan O-> O+> |
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Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster |
Posted: 03 Jan 2007 It was wild-caught, from an area where both species are found (Slavonski Brod, Croatia). I don't think anyone has looked at the venom, to my knowledge. We have a sample to determine the maternal parent but have not quite got around to do the sequencing yet...  
For some strange reason, I have a distinct fealing that pretty much all the photos of ammodytes x berus hybrids I have seen depicted melanistic specimens. I can't be entiruely sure whether this is a general pattern, selective photography or selective memory on my part.... Tony, any additional info? Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang Wüster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/ |
- Xanthina or Lebetina |