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birdflu in herps?????: |
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lucym Member Joined: 22 Feb 2006 No. of posts: 31  View other posts by lucym |
Posted: 05 Apr 2006 Hi, sorry if this is toataly silly but i am no scientist and this has been nigling me for a bit  What with bird-flu knocking on the door does anybody know if theres any threat to our beloved herps? not exactly sure how its contracted but could grass snakes, frogs, toads, newts be at threat from swimming in the same water as geese/ducks, or what about berus taking a chick ( do they eat chicks?? hmm not sure about that one,) any way point is.. is there any knowledge of it being a threat to our herps? |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369  View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 06 Apr 2006
Probably the saving grace would that amphibians tend avoid ponds which are heavily used by ducks and other water fowl. Most of those ponds are health hazards away - the water would be loaded with bacteria, yeasts, viruses etc from the birds and the amount of food dumped into the water. The bird flu scare story is gathering pace quite nicely with the pharmaceutical companies rubbing their hands when the profits start rolling in by supplying vaccines (which havent been proven to work) and drugs for the people who catch 'flu' etc If animals immune systems are compromised then disease causing agents can get to work on these animals - Farm animals tend to be in a very stressful environment and in high numbers so the chances of spreading the disease is very high (re foot and mouth) - given that thousands of animals are transported across the UK, Europe and the world. I have little confidence in the media reporting of 'bird flu' - birds I would imagine are covered in all sorts of bacteria/viruses etc - so when a migrating swan dies on its travels I would say that they are going to find a virus or two - and identifying viruses is quite hard so it makes for the scare story. Such a deadly disease - 100 deaths over three years and from a population of 6 billion humans! - oh sorry our herps I feel it is unlikely - perhaps people could let us know more JC
Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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Mika Member Joined: 03 Apr 2006 No. of posts: 21  View other posts by Mika |
Posted: 06 Apr 2006 This link may be of interest....(might be a bit out of date as I think there were several cases of bird-flu fatality in Turkey as well...though I may be wrong)! http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/avian_faqs/en / Purely my opinion, but I agree with you though Herpetologic2. The media does revels in scare-mongering and yep, I bet the pharmacuetical companies are set to make a pretty penny out of it all. It was a similar story with SARS - widespread panic all across Asia with the wearing of masks in airports and on aeroplanes (I was in Bangkok at the time). Not saying that there isn't a 'real' threat and that precautions sholdn't be taken, but these things do seem to get blown out of proportion sometimes.... |
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rhysrkid Senior Member Joined: 14 Nov 2003 No. of posts: 98  View other posts by rhysrkid |
Posted: 06 Apr 2006 Bird flu is a serious potential risk. As far as humans are concerned, In 1918 - 1919 H1N1 bird flu (also known as Spanish Flu), killed, depending on your source, between 20 and 100 million people, when it mutated and became capable of human-human transmission. Hence the fuss about H5N1 strains at the moment. The risk is serious to birds and usually fatal in infected animals (dependent on species). The impact is therefore principally to the agricultural industry and currently vaccination is not the favoured solution (unlike in France) as it can make detecting the virus even harder - vaccinated animals can carry the disease without showing any signs of it. Many animals are tested for H5N1 and up to now have been negative. Agreed birds, as every animal, carry their own parasites (as do we) but typically they are not fatal. I agree with Jon - I dont think herps are at risk for many reasons ū they have little direct contact with birds and viral particles donĘt typically remain viable outside of the host for long. Also human deaths have only resulted, from very close contact (e.g. consumption of uncooked meat) and these have all been restricted to those countries where intimate bird handling is more common. I agree that we shouldn't panic or blow the whole thing out of proportion; the current risk to humans is very low. Indeed the media are very good at making situations like this sound much worse than they really are. However I do think that taking sensible precautions (for economic reasons if nothing else) is worthwhile. The burning carcasses of animals infected with F&M is a poignant reminderą Rhys |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 07 Apr 2006
The situation in the UK is somewhat different to 1918 - 1919 - our living conditions for the majority of people - health care, diet, sanitation etc has improved beyond what it was like in 1918 - The immune systems of the soldiers fighting in the trenches were severely compromised due to the trench condition. The virus took a hold and spread amongst the population. You cannot compare this situation to our situation now. Millions of people die of TB and other diseases in the developing world - or rather ecomonically suppressed world where living conditions are much worst than in the developing world. I may be wrong and the billions of pounds that will be sent to Big Pharma will help prevent the 'millions' of deaths caused by the all new french spanish bird flu thingy EFH51 tt or somethink like it The foot and mouth crisis was a symptom of the farming industry - Bird flu is mainly found in waterfowl - these viruses may naturally occur in these birds and may not be the cause of death - but putting the two together makes the headlines rather like the recent case of measles when a traveller boy died apparently because he wasnt given the MMR jab! - in fact he died of measles because his immune system was suppressed - and nothing to do with the MMR but that is what the news readers were trying make us think by mentioning the death and then go onto the low uptake of MMR jabs and that the boy was part of a travelling community who do not take up the MMR - I remember the scares about pigeons and the disease these 'flying rats' can pass onto humans - what they dont tell you is that the birds in your garden carry the same dangers - thats why people are told to wash their hands after stocking up the bird feeders and bird baths. JC
Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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rhysrkid Senior Member Joined: 14 Nov 2003 No. of posts: 98 View other posts by rhysrkid |
Posted: 07 Apr 2006 Whilst I agree that conditions in the west are now different, in the east things are not quite the same, and in many places conditions are probably similar to that of 1919 rural western Europe. The majority of deaths in 1918-1919 were civilian not military, although they were obviously more susceptible to it (it was probably a contributory factor to ending the war). Deaths occurred in India (17mil), USA (500K), Japan (250K) and many other countries. Pandemics also occurred in 1957 and 1968 (Asia/Hong Kong). Now I'm not saying we are all going to pop our clogs - far from it. We have to be sensible about perceived risks. We do have better medical capabilities however, we all still suffer from colds and flu - if a lethal strain does mutate, probably in the east, it could spread. Who knows if this will happen, and maybe Pharmaceutical companies do stand to make a tidy profit, but thatĘs nothing new. The point I was making about F&M is that, the real risk at present is not to us but the farming industry (which is already suffering unnecessarily on the continent due to falling sales). If bird flu spreads amongst poultry for example, many animals will have to be culled to prevent further spread - as was the case with F&M. This costs us all, not just farmers. Rhys |
- birdflu in herps????? |