RAUK - Archived Forum - scotland

You could try a local Reptile group ? At least meet like minded locals and a wealth of information. Not sure where you are but you could try:

Lothian: Dave Garner, Lothian Amphibian and Reptile Group, c/o Scottish Wildlife Trust, Room 22, Leith Walk Business Centre, 130 Leith Walk, Edinburgh EH6 5DT

else for a more local group try:

http://www.wartsoc.co.uk/args.html

Steve

'tins' are just one type of refugia that can be used to detect reptiles. Others are roofing felt and carpet tiles. The idea is that they warm up even on overcast days and make it easier to detect reptiles. They can be very effective compared to visual survey, which often relies on luck and ideal weather.

Briefly, use refugia approx. 2ft square, though many say the bigger the better. Place in a sunny spot along banks and margins and make sure there is enough vegetation to form a cushion under the refugia. Then it's just a case of looking under the 'tins' during mid morning and afternoon to see if anything is making use of them. They usually start to produce animals after a couple of weeks, though it's very late in the season now.

To use refugia you will need the land owners permission, this is where your local amphibian and reptile group may be able to help, also you can coordinate with others to carry out targetted surveys.

Grass snakes have limited distribution in Scotland, this is thought to be because it is not warm enough for their eggs to develop, adder distribution is patchy.

Thanks for the info, i'm up in aberdeen but it's good close by for woodland and lots of heather etc.. and i know of alot of people who have spotted snakes at sometime, i thought that's what you all meant by tins but didnt want to sound stupid if i was wrong, there is a quarry, well more of a dump with lots of old tat and dumped materials that is quite deep into the country and with heather surrounding it and only a few people know of it and theres lots of corrogated iron lying about and we have seen rodent running about under it sometime so i suspect if there was any it would be here.

One more question, when would be the latest in the year to spot them and would they be using these tins in the autumn/winter motnhs?

One more question, when would be the latest in the year to spot them and would they be using these tins in the autumn/winter motnhs?

[/QUOTE]

I'll be doing my last surveys of the season this week in Essex using refugia that were placed some time ago.

Refugia are unlikely to produce reptiles in late autumn and winter.

I start in mid February to March, July to August is usually not so good because it is often too warm in Southern England, though you might find that isn't so much of a problem in Scotland. September and early October can produce good results, particularly when detecting juveniles.

There are no populations of Grass Snakes in Scotland, being oviparious the tempreature never gets high enough for the eggs to be incubated correctly and be able to hatch.

Your local library should have copies of the IUCN Red & Green Books of conservation, every local authority is responsible for recording which species occur in their district.

Red book is for all endangered species listed in your area and in the UK, Green for stable species in your area and in the UK.

These include all introduced species.

If your library does not have a copy try your local council.

There has been no verification of Grass Snakes to occur Scotland, always rumours though, often people mistake slow worms for grass snakes, as people expect lizards to have legs.

I am from Hamilton, and am quite lucky, that in my surrounding area we have the viparious lizard, reasonable population of slow worms, plenty of frogs, toads, newts and a few populations of great crested newts.

There is a small adder population in Erskine, in which I am hoping to do some work on, as like most of you have yet too see an adder in scotland.

Plenty of adders around the Rockliffe and Kippford areas on the Solway Firth. OK only just into Scotland but still...

As a kid in the Lake District in the 1960s we had lots of grass snakes and the winters were very long and perishing - it's not the same now. If we had a thriving population of grass snakes why not parts of Scotland? Particularly those coastal areas benefitting from the Gulf Stream.

have you ever been to scotland? lollollol

after having a very quick look for info:

http://www.irene.org.uk/sarg/sarg2.htm

look at that link at the first sentence about the grass snakes. and also, search for natrix natrix on the EMBL database, you'll notice it says england under distribution, but not scotland

This website claims they have adders and grass snakes on Mull.

http://www.fascadail.co.uk/holiday-accommodation-isle-mull.html

Yes I've been to Scotland.

OK truce on grass snakes in Scotland!

Thanks Donny and Herpfan for your comments. I see from the July temperature chart that Cumbria is on the edge of the warmer temps. I realise that very cold winters are not so critical as lengthy summers and perhaps I should have emphasised the short summers we had.

Out of interest it would be interesting to know how much surveying for grass snakes has been done north of the border.

There are no grass snakes on Mull, despite what a single website claims, Mull has been intensively studied by Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen universities, mainly for birds and small mammals, adders and common lizards were recorded, as were slow worms but no grass snakes. Again I suspect the grass snake has been misidentified, as remember most people think the black adder is entirely black (melanistic), therefore someone who did not know any better could quite easily misidentify the species.

Again to check, get a hold of the IUCN data for mull, I can ensure you grass snakes do not occur on Mull.

Here is a list of species of reptile found in Scandanavia : I have put an X to the ones that are  viparious.

Coronella austricata (x)

Natrix natrix

Goniurosaurus lichtenfelderi

Lacerta agilis

Lacerta vivipara (x)

Dermochelys coriacea

Vipera berus (x)

Bearing in mind Scandanavia has a greater range of altitudes than Scotland, i.e. the Norweigan Fords are much warmer than our cool summers.

The Scandanavian reptiles which occur at the same latitude as Scotland are :

Viper berus and Lacerta vivipara, there are no oviparious reptiles present in Scandanavia at the same latitude as Scotland.

Lacerta agilis the sand lizard has also not been recorded in Scotland, and is also under severe threat as we all know.

I do not doubt however that it may be possible for Grass snakes to survive in Dumfries, as the tempreatures are similar to those of the Lake District. However the Northern Uplands which are North of Cumbria, and the Lead hills before Dumfries (heading southwards) are two barriers which prevent the spread of the grass snake into Scotland, and again there are no oviparious recorded in Scotland, again problems with not only tempreature for egg incubation, but also the amount of rainfall we get, which would certainly destroy the eggs if the cold did not.

Also bear in mind it takes approximately 10 weeks for Grass Snake eggs to hatch, so what are the chances of us up here getting the same tempreatures as Cumbria down south to allow the snakes to hatch ? One month similar tempreature is not adequate enough for the grass snake eggs to hatch up here.

Grass snakes in Cumbria are also known for their maternal incubation, i.e. the Female coils round her clutch, shivering, to raise the tempreature until the eggs hatch. This has been proven in various scientific studies on, not just colubrids but also Boidae, and the temp only gets raised a maximum of 2 Celcius, still not enough to allow the eggs to successfully hatch here.

While the Clyde Reptile and Amphibian Group http://www.carg.supanet.com/ was in operation, this organisation did intensive fieldwork and studies of possible habitats for herps in central Scotland, again no grass snakes were found.

Again if you want written conformation of this, and all the studies which have been done in Scotland so far, the information can be obtained by contacting or are in the IUCN books of conservation which I mentioned in my previous post.

Lothian: Dave Garner, Lothian Amphibian and Reptile Group, c/o Scottish Wildlife Trust, Room 22, Leith Walk Business Centre, 130 Leith Walk, Edinburgh EH6 5DT

Regards

Andy